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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

How is this not just standard horror?

What is the Cosmic Horror element? Again, remember, as per the conversation, we're specifically talking about Cosmic Horror. Bog standard horror? Sure, D&D doesn't do a bad job of that. Curse of Strahd demonstrates that. But we're talking about Cosmic Horror which is not the same thing. And, no, I don't think that simply adding more tentacles suddenly makes things cosmic horror.
Well, I was responding to @Aldarc who was specifically addressing the point of heroes having a lot of options and feeling more “heroic” as a consequence.

As to adding a “Cosmic” to the “Cosmic Horror” genre, that depends what to you as the hallmarks of a Cosmic Horror game, and I am not beholden to your definition.

As to what I would add to make a 5e game feel like Cosmic Horror to me:
  • An enemy whose mindset is alien and who the characters cannot hope to defeat through combat (easy enough);
  • Have that enemy not follow the same rules in combat as the characters (both easy and fun to do IMHO);
  • A situation where even if the characters win, they feel like they lost (easy to do);
  • an emphasis on esoteric and lost knowledge, possibly with negative effects incurred upon learning information (easy to do).
 

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Well, yes, the fact that one D&D campaign is nothing like another even if both groups follow the rules closely is a very strong evidence.


Is Reinfield a main character in Dracula or just another freak who is there just to be off-putting? Eating bugs and being weird is what Reinfeld was born to do. He's just doing his job. The same doesn't apply to a damn protagonist.

I can't conceive any way to make a brave fighter eating dirt because he've seen a tentacled mess (and then being okay 1d10 minutes after) seem believable.

Mechanical teeth refers to teeth on a gear, not to teeth in a dragon's maw.

Wait.

Do I really need to explain that removing a player from a game for a considerable amount of time isn't a good idea in any RPG?


It gives gimmicks, not flaws. That, again, don't encourage using them to get your character in trouble.
That's not how game design works. The best, most effective move available to a player should always align with the tone of the story. With madness rules the best, most effective move is to say "no way I'm doing this" and "screw this naughty word, let's get outta here".

They don't reward the players for placing their characters into dire situations and driving them insane. On the contrary, the rules punish them for doing their job properly.


Dude. That's what this whole thread is about.

If the rules don't work for me and work for you, even if we both followed them, then... The rules don't produce reliable results and don't funnel the participants towards genre-appropriate experience. In short, they don't work.

Again, madness and sanity optional rules didn't make your campaign horror. You did.
Right, so for all its other flaws, the Call of Cthulhu game illustrates the above points.

First, SAN loss is not something you can avoid. While I think it is unwise for the Keeper to constantly 'garden' SAN checks, you surely cannot get far without exposing yourself to something nasty and taking SOME SAN loss. It is thus integral to the game.

Furthermore each point of Mythos skill you acquire costs you one permanent SAN loss. This faces each PC (certainly some PCs) with a devil's bargain, increase your skill rating in this vital area and break your mind, or you can try to remain largely ignorant and avoid SOME damage to your brain! The Keeper will surely inflict this dilemma on the PCs on a regular basis, "Oh, look a copy of the Book of Eibon lying open on the bad guy's desk. Do you want to study it?"

Spell casting costs SAN directly. EVERY SINGLE time you access this resource, of potentially almost limitless utility, you burn SAN! While CoC isn't a high magic game by any means, spells are darned handy and a constant temptation. This is ANOTHER devil's bargain!

There is no question about how to use the SAN mechanic, or really even WHEN to use it. The rules are very clear, they contain a whole list of situations and what sort of SAN loss they entail. Every single creature, spell, book of lore, etc. spells out exactly what the SAN consequences of interacting with it are. Furthermore these are scaled, so seeing a dead guy with his eyes chewed out by rats is worth something like 0/1d6, and seeing Cthulhu himself rise from the depths of the ocean is a straight up 1d100 SAN loss experience (most PCs are basically insta-ganked by this).

The effects of SAN loss are also very clearly spelled out. 5 points worth causes temporary insanity, and it is explained what that means in an RP sense and how the Keeper should handle it, how and when the PC recovers, etc. (this amount still allows you to function with some potential problems). Greater losses can cause permanent, but curable, insanity, as long as your total SAN remains above zero. Again, there are rules for how this works and you can at least still participate in the adventure on some level with the PC, but it will have to be cured later. Finally zero SAN is described as basically a PC Kill, though your character might still work as an NPC in some capacity (IE be consulted while ranting in a straight jacket in Arkham Asylum). There are also rules for GAINING SAN. You can gain it for defeating monsters (but never as much as you probably lost) and cultists, or through paying in time and money to have therapy, though that can only provide limited help.

In other words, this is a highly integrated subsystem which presents players with hard choices and models the characters descent into madness as a process. It also doesn't include things like random tables of symptoms and such. In fact I think in 7th Gen they mostly avoid much in the way of diagnostic terminology. At most there are suggestions like "the Keeper might declare that the character has acquired a paranoia or phobia" or something like that. Mechanical consequences are pretty loose, actually, but include the Keeper imposing hallucinations or compulsions. Failing a SAN check also temporarily incapacitates the character, even if it doesn't lead to any other effect (IE they turn away, run, cower in fear, vomit uncontrollably, or something like that instead of acting for a brief moment).

Obviously, with enough work, you could integrate a framework like that onto a game like 5e, but nothing like that has been done. This is POSSIBLE, but requires more work and some genre bending changes to the system.
 

Literally none of which supports horror mechanically except potentially using madness.
Maybe. Personally I'm not sure game mechanics can support horror in a TTRPG. As I noted in an earlier post, you need player and DM buy-in, IME, to make horror work. I definitely don't think Sanity points from CoC supports horror, and I can say that from personal experience.
 

Personally I'm not sure game mechanics can support horror in a TTRPG. As I noted in an earlier post, you need player and DM buy-in, IME, to make horror work.
There's no contradiction between needing buy-in and mechanical support. You can't even do tactics in 4E if everyone plays like Leeroy Jenkins, even though the system has huge mechanical support for tactics.

Loads of systems have good mechanical support for horror. Generally players who want to play horror will buy in, with rare exceptions (the exceptions, ironically, are usually the easiest to scare IRL, in my experience!).
I definitely don't think Sanity points from CoC supports horror, and I can say that from personal experience.
I agree 100% :D

SAN from CoC acts as a sort of metagame edginess which unsettles players (not characters) and supports the theme of "damaging knowledge" present in much of Lovecraft's work.

It is not a great support for horror/terror.
 

Loads of systems have good mechanical support for horror. Generally players who want to play horror will buy in, with rare exceptions (the exceptions, ironically, are usually the easiest to scare IRL, in my experience!).
In the horror genre I am only familiar with CoC. Do you have any examples of games or mechanics or both that provide mechanical support for horror. I personally can't imagine a rule to support horror, but it is likely either:
  1. Limits of my experience and creativity colliding to not see what is possible, or...
  2. Personal TTRPG tastes that dislikes such mechanics (IDK, I haven't seen them).
 

I haven't played a lot of games, but that was the same impression I had of CoC. The game didn't make it horror, the players and I (the GM) did.

Honestly, I can't think of how a TTRP can do horror through mechanics only. You really need group buy in. I mean, if my character dies or goes insane or looses a leg, so what. It is a piece of paper. You always need significant group buy-in to make horror work, not rules.
It is difficult to see how you would avoid the horror aspect of CoC. I mean, I guess you could simply play 'detectives in 1920' and never ever interact with the mythos. That would require specific choices made by the Keeper, for sure. Even then SAN would still be an active mechanic that could well come into play. I think there ARE people who have used CoC in something like this way, it is after all an instantiation of BRP, and thus it has, or is compatible with, a large selection of material that doesn't deal with Cosmic Horror specifically. OTOH you might as well just buy the latest edition of BRP itself, it has plenty of rules and options to do all this stuff. You don't need a list of Cthulhu monsters, spells, etc. if you are never going to use them.

I think one might make a similar observation about 5e D&D. If you are not going to use its monsters, spells, classes, etc. because they don't mesh with the genre, then there's not a really compelling reason to use the engine at all (aside from personal reasons, which are fine). CoC at least is built on a generic platform system, so it is hard to argue it is 'more niche' than D&D. I would personally argue that the same is largely true of PbtA and FitD. The specific games/settings built on them are surely 'niche' to an extent, but no more so than D&D is. The overall mechanics allow for basically unlimited possibilities, granting they will always use a specific play process, again also a characteristic of D&D.

My impression is that many posters who are mostly familiar with D&D on EnWorld falsely assume that other systems they don't know so well are somehow 'more limited'. I think this is largely an artifact of unfamiliarity with those systems. perhaps coupled with a natural tendency to believe that whatever way you are used to doing things "must be the best way."
 

It was back in the 80s when I played CoC, I don't know if the rules were the same. I just remember we didn't like the sanity rules.
The game has not evolved in any really substantive way. Newer editions have tweaked things a bit here and there is about all. I don't think SAN specifically has really changed in any way, except I seem to recall that early versions had a % of your max SAN as the trigger for temporary insanity vs 5 points in 7th Edition.
 

Like any save it depends. One of the DMG recommendations is:
  • Resisting an effect conferred by an attack or spell that deals psychic damage
So a failed save would result in the attack or spell dealing full psychic damage and whatever other effects happen on a failed save. Just like any other ability score.
Unfortunately, this is a non-answer that actually doesn't address what I'm talking about, because it also says that a player on a failed sanity check might roll on the madness tables. Again. Which one?

See and your post convinces me even more it's a playstyle thing. D&D's playstyle is not to have specific procedures that run the game and I don't think they are necessary to have a good horror game. Now you can claim a bad DM might mess it up because he's not constrained but then we're assuming a bad DM when it comes to a loose framework but a good DM (who follows procedure and agendas and etc.) when it comes to a game like BitD. In actuality, when claiming whether something can or cannot be done well in a particular system, we should be talking about this from the perspective of two GM's proficient in their respective playstyles... not bad DM'ing in one style and good DM'ing in another.
A playstyle thing? There's simply no rules for when a particular madness table should be used. It's literally "whatevers." That's a rules thing. ("rulings not rules blah blah blah.") Moreover, my point is not that these are necessary for a running a good horror game. I'm not sure if that's either you moving the goal posts or attacking a strawman there. It's hard to say. My post has strictly been about assessing my opinions on the madness rules/mechanics as written in the 5e DMG and my opinions thereof, which rules that you have even admitted that you don't use as written.

I'm not even talking about a bad DM or any more bogus positions like that. This is not for me a good/bad faith issue. I'm assuming a GM mastering in good faith when I am giving you my assessment of the madness mechanics and the guidelines therein. I'm trusting that @Hussar has experience using the madness rules as a good/competent GM when they say that they ran terribly. I'm trusting the same from you when you say that you have experience using a modified version of the madness rules as a good/competent GM when you say that they ran well. But your post very much implies that @Hussar is not a good GM following procedures and agendas, and also it wants to imply that I wouldn't be one were I to try using the madness rules. That sort of condescension has no place here.

The idea that "D&D doesn't have specific procedures that run the game" is also demonstrably untrue (e.g., combat procedures, long/short rests, dungeon crawl procedures in B/X and 1e, etc.). These are all specific procedures, and I know that there are more. It's a game that has specific procedures that run the game in some areas and little to none in others. Different games have different specific procedures that run the game. It's important to recognize that and not just yet again buy into "D&D exceptionalism" to game design.

But I'm glad you feel the need to tell me that your preconceived biases have been confirmed! I'm glad that you can now conveniently dismiss my criticisms of the madness mechanics in D&D just like you've been doing up and down to anyone else who dares question anything about the rules of D&D. It's good enough for you, so it's clearly a great mechanic no questions asked. I would personally be far less irritated if you bothered engaging with my criticisms of madness with some measure of sympathy instead of using it as a blind springboard for your preconceived conclusions.

I tried addressing my issues with the madness rules directly. And this is the response I get from you? A dismissive, nonsense lecture about good DMing in one system and bad DMing in another, which wasn't even a part of my post? This feels like a rude non sequitur. That doesn't strike me as good faith conversation, so consider further conversation closed.
 

It is difficult to see how you would avoid the horror aspect of CoC. I mean, I guess you could simply play 'detectives in 1920' and never ever interact with the mythos. That would require specific choices made by the Keeper, for sure. Even then SAN would still be an active mechanic that could well come into play. I think there ARE people who have used CoC in something like this way, it is after all an instantiation of BRP, and thus it has, or is compatible with, a large selection of material that doesn't deal with Cosmic Horror specifically. OTOH you might as well just buy the latest edition of BRP itself, it has plenty of rules and options to do all this stuff. You don't need a list of Cthulhu monsters, spells, etc. if you are never going to use them.
I didn't say we didn't use Sanity when we played CoC, I said we didn't like it and it didn't create a "horror" feeling for us. The horror came in the form of fighting against crazy tough monsters and mostly the atmosphere created by the GM and the buy-in of the players that we were going to be horrified. The Sanity mechanic did not add to that experience for us. So, other than Sanity, what does CoC do mechanically to support horror?
 


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