D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[dave2008]

Well, let me first preface this by saying, I think CoC is overall a bad/terribly obsolete 1980's vintage game system that should be retired forthwith and which I will never use again!

However, it does portray Cosmic Horror by presenting a managerie of creatures which are both horrific in aspect, almost universally lethal, and either hostile or having entirely unfathomable motives (and thus often acting in totally unexpected ways). PCs are physically MUCH weaker than all but the most trivial of monsters. Monsters have abilities (and cultists have access to them) which are entirely outside the realm of anything that PCs have (which is basically limited to the abilities of normal humans of the 1920's or maybe modern times if you play in the Cthulhu Now! module).

But I think SAN really IS an integral part of the 'flavor' of the game, and what made CoC such an iconic game.

Finally, CoC is a poor game mostly BECAUSE its process is so much like D&D! It is exactly the ways it is like old-school RPGs that are its weak point. The skill system is extremely hard to use, there is no context in which a skill operates, it is just a check called for by the Keeper, for whatever reason. Success doesn't really mean much, it just means you might be called on to make the exact same check again 5 seconds later. Or failure might not really lead to anything different from success. There's no indication of what is an appropriate consequence for failure, and being primarily a mystery type of game that EASILY leads to catastrophic fail plot stoppers and subsequent awkward plot bandaids, and characters that come across as idiots.

Making it worse, the skill system is open-ended. So there is an INFINITE LIST of skills. Many of the ones included in the game explicitly overlap to a very high degree, or are not clearly any better than your basic education or intelligence. While there is a 'levels of failure/success' rule it doesn't really clarify much either, and is often pretty much impossible to actually use. TBH the skill system is literally WORSE THAN NOTHING, and doesn't add anything to the actual subject matter of the game, quite the contrary (Mythos skill being the one exception due to how it interacts with SAN and its obvious thematic purpose). Seventh Edition's design clearly shows that Chaosium knows about these issues, they pared back the skill list some, etc. but it is far too little, and they failed to add any sort of mechanics to produce the sorts of dynamic escalating tension sort of play that happens in something like Dungeon World. A need that this genre BEGS the game to introduce.

Contrast this with Trail of Cthulhu, which does ALL of these things far far better. Its resolution mechanics are geared specifically to failing the game in a forward direction and upping the tension, and it handles mythos material and the mental effects of exposure, etc. just as well as CoC does. It is a 1000% better game. That is, it is a pretty solid 21st Century RPG design! This is really my ultimate position on this whole topic, is just that 5e is ESSENTIALLY a 1975 vintage design, with a few superficial add ons and tweaks. in the last 46 years a HUGE amount has been learned in terms of techniques to use in RPG design. Current game designs are simply a LOT stronger and deliver better play, more reliably, with less fuss. This is to be expected. Its fine to say you prefer your '57 Chevy, but trying to claim it is better than a Tesla Model S because you can run with glass packs and a 455cu in hemi head V8 if you want is missing the point entirely, the Tesla will still dust you every single time on the street, without fail.

I fundamentally disagree with your argument. We see this topic too differently.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Poor choice of words. Sorry to send you of on a tangent

What I am trying to suggest is that it is not a mechanic made for horror. It is a mechanic for tension or suspense. You can use those in a horror game, or Different genre, but the mechanics don't make it a horror game or even a better horror game IMO

I would say they are necessary but not sufficient. @Manbearcat pretty well listed the elements required for horror, and his list isn't at all specific to RPGs either. Horror is about loss of power and control, lack of predictability, and lack of knowledge or understanding, combined with obvious or impending danger. You really need these sorts of elements, and tension is ALWAYS a part of horror. I mean, you could ALMOST imagine a sort of sense of 'creepiness' to existential (IE Cosmic) horror that lacks overt tension, but even then, if I put myself into a mindset of "things are not as they seem" tension is still there, maybe just lurking beneath the surface. When the 'things' manifest? That tension will suddenly snap! It is even kind of more startling in that case because you are less aware of it. I would agree that FEAR =/= HORROR.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Poor choice of words. Sorry to send you of on a tangent

What I am trying to suggest is that it is not a mechanic made for horror. It is a mechanic for tension or suspense. You can use those in a horror game, or Different genre, but the mechanics don't make it a horror game or even a better horror game IMO

Your argument points towards saying no mechanic can so exist because it can always be labeled as adjacent. That horror can never be a factor of game mechanics, therefore no game does horror any better than 5e. Is this the direction you're heading?

 

[dave2008]

You could conclude the opposite, that various 'flavor inducing' mechanics ARE the sauce to make horror work. This is the selling argument for SAN basically (and that it is a bit like a Doom Pool, it can go BOOM at any time)

It may be for some, but wasn't for us. We had much more cosmic horror fun without a Sanity mechanic then we did with one.

. Think about 'body horror' for instance. Wouldn't a game which included mechanics that simulated the loss of capability, fear of permanent disability and death, etc. from some sort of creepy thing happening to your body ENHANCE your ability to immerse yourself in your character, and imagine what it would be like to have your arm rotting off or something? Sure couldn't hurt, could it?

I guess that is why 5e has them, but I've never played a body horror game. I can only take your word that it enhances the experience.

 

[dave2008]

Your argument points towards saying no mechanic can so exist because it can always be labeled as adjacent. That horror can never be a factor of game mechanics, therefore no game does horror any better than 5e. Is this the direction you're heading?

Not intentionally. During these discussions I have come to the soft conclusion that no TTRPG rules can create a sense of terror or horror. A game of this nature simply cannot recreate horror. I would say many games (I am assuming) do a better job of creating tension than 5e. And I think some equate that with horror.

 

[Hussar]

Mod Note:

So, in other words, you cannot resist your impulses in this thread.

Okay then, you're done here.

Sorry, I am absolutely not questioning Moderation here. But, was this directed at me? There is no name attached to it. Since it doesn't mention me by name, I'm going to assume it's not directed at me. But, I wanted to be very clear, @Umbran.

 

[Hussar]

PS Have you read Dracula? Once Van Helsing gets involved the title character is pretty much running with his tail between his legs the whole time, and he ends up destroyed.

You mean the protagonist Johnathan Harker, that marries his love, kills the baddie (or helps anyway) and lives a good life with his wife and son? How did he end up destroyed? In what way was he destroyed?

 

[Hussar]

Thank you. That was helpful and confirms that I was using the definition of Cosmic Horror Story correctly and that is indeed the genre we played our 5e Cthulhu game in. Thank you again for the help!

So @Hussar, the definition provide by @tetrasodium confirms the game I played in 5e was indeed Cosmic Horror. Does his / the websites definition fit your definition?

I read the link. Yup, I think you played a Lovecraft Lite game. Is that what you meant?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sorry, I am absolutely not questioning Moderation here. But, was this directed at me? There is no name attached to it. Since it doesn't mention me by name, I'm going to assume it's not directed at me. But, I wanted to be very clear, @Umbran.

It's someone that has you blocked. It strips contents from posts that even quote the blocker. This is intended operation.

 

[dave2008]

Sorry, I am absolutely not questioning Moderation here. But, was this directed at me? There is no name attached to it. Since it doesn't mention me by name, I'm going to assume it's not directed at me. But, I wanted to be very clear, @Umbran.

If you blocked someone - that is probably who it is (since you can't see it)

Or as @Ovinomancer said