D&D General On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game

I agree overwhelmingly with your above post, and I agree with some of those thoughts on 4e (particularly how non-framing aspects of system, eg Milestones and the % of the overall Team PC gastank is in the "Encounter Tank" and how deeply synergies can be brought to bear, mollifies the game's sensitivity to Daily Refresh).

However, I think where AA's thoughts (and perhaps yours if you also subscribe to those thoughts) falls flat is I've seen him express a sentiment of "in PBtA systems, Complications are going to arise whether Team PC acts or doesn't act so, effectively, the GM has mandate (or maybe even responsibility) to just Soft Move the game into (basically) oblivion (meaning GMs have unbridled framing and re-framing authority by just looping soft moves ad nauseum) if they wish. Consequently, the Skilled Play signal (that is the player's ability to actually wrest control of the gamestate presently and future states downstream of this present gamestate) is effectively muted because of the GM's authority and responsibility to endlessly erect obstacles in the course of merely running the game."

Or, put another way, "Fill their lives with danger by weaponizing the soft move in an infinite loop (with brief interludes of Hard Moves and a tacit acknowledgement of the impact of their 33 % 10+ moves...which really don't matter because remember to weaponize that soft move infinite loop!) until you're bored or you feel like the scene is played out and then just rinse repeat until end of session!"

With respect, I don't know who is running his Dungeon World games or where this interpretation of DW or PBtA games at large is coming from (if indeed my reading is correct)...

But my god. That is as incorrect a reading as I could possibly imagine. Its just fundamentally not true. That is basically as Calvinballing of PBtA GMing as I could imagine...a sort of GMing that would be so ham-fisted if operationalized and so deeply detached from the aggregate of the game's principles and structure (and all the things that spin out of that), that I can't imagine even sitting for that GM for more than a moment. I mean...maybe my reading is wrong, but that looks to operationalize a kind of PBtA GM Force that effectively obviates player input into the fiction that is really on par with the most brunt deployments in AD&D 2e.

The GM depicted in the "infinite soft move loop" paradigm is NOT:

Playing to Find Out What Happens
Following The Rules
Making Moves That Follow
Begin and End With the Fiction

And they're probably NOT:

Asking Questions and Using the Answers (because the sort of structured conversation that stems from following the play procedures would reveal the degenerate, Skilled Play-killing "initiate operation Soft Move Endless Loop" paradigm happening...if it hasn't been exposed already)

I don't know how one reads that sort of authority and play structure from the text and I can't imagine how one feels like they could deploy it (in spite of all of the relevant aspects of system and structure that push back against it) in a manner sufficiently covert so as to not induce an immediate walk-out.

So my TLDR version is this: That reading of PBtA games is fundamentally incorrect and I can't imagine trying to operationalize it in play. GMs don't have the authority and don't have the means to just Soft Move the game into whatever gamestate they feel is best served by their will at the moment. Its just not the way the games are written and if they're being played that way by people, its because something has gone wrong in the reading and the holistic application of the ruleset that is akin to the whole "Skillchallenges are just an exercise in pointless dice-rolling and incomprehensible fiction" debacle that we (including AA!) worked so hard to push back against and clarify!

The integrated structure of play, the authority distribution, the profound constraints and limits of power on GMs, the table facing nature of play, and the robust PCs (including the resources they can martial) make this (imo degenerate-play producing) reading of PBtA games basically a non sequitur.

EDIT - I'm sorry this sounds like a rousing rebuke (because you're both my pals), but I can't disagree more stridently. I'm just stunned...floored at the text interpretation (and trying to imagine the horror of the play it would produce!). I'm hoping I've made a wrong turn at Albaquerque and I'm reading you both wrong here somewheres! Ready and willing to stand corrected on a misread!
I think I'm just explaining myself very poorly and we're blundering past each other in the middle of the night here.

I am not advocating for some sort of DW 'GM Railroad' at all. I'm just saying that the process in this game is for the GM to apply pressure on the PCs. They cannot, by skill, avoid some sort of pressure. Now, in terms of how the FICTION plays out, that's kind of a different thing. The PCs can be vastly successful, or they can be abject failures, fictionally, but fundamentally DW doesn't care, as a game. So, the end of your scene with the wizard will be one of two states (as a generalization). Either the PCs will be toast, or at the very least they failed to defeat the wizard and are in deep trouble. Or they will be victorious, probably go back to town and make some 'downtime' moves (Carousing, whatever). Either way, assuming they aren't dead, they will wake up and be framed into a new scene where 'stuff will happen to them'. Sure, that will of course be related to their stated goals, what they do with their bonds and alignment, maybe what they choose at level up, even basic equipment choices might factor into what the GM throws at them next. And that throwing will involve some sort of front and locations and whatnot that came about via asking the players questions and going with the answers.

So, yeah, the players are getting what they want. I don't have a problem with calling some of all this 'skill', but it feels like it is much less a game of 'success and failure' when we play, and more a game of sort of "Soap Opera for D&D Adventurers" where SOMETHING is always rearing its ugly head! I mean, you COULD also do things like frame the next scene 25 years in the future, and describe how the PCs all got to retire happily and gloriously after putting the beat down on the evil wizard, but now his apprentice has come back... ;) There's always a next chapter, at least until 'the end'.
 

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I think some people make out/remember/think of 1e as more extreme on lethality than it was.

There are 1e things where failure can be death/lose the game (green slime and rot grubs come to mind). There are save or die things that come down to luck. They are not omnipresent. There are plenty of success = great, failure = a hit with some consequences but not death or loss of the game entirely.

1e White Plume Mountain starts off with a Sphinx riddle. Figure it out and you get past the sphinx no problem. Fail to solve it and you don't lose the game, you have to fight the sphinx which will generally take some resources but should be something characters of the module's level can handle.
There's a heck of a lot of 'insta gank' in 1e (and 2e as well, oddly, another area where it is badly suited to its avowed purpose). Poisons almost all kill instantly for example, and routine commonly encountered low level monsters like spiders and centipedes carry poison which kills on a failed save! It is a common type of trap element as well (how common is harder to judge, but it is certainly a trope). At higher levels many things are super deadly. A level 5 party being hit by a level 5 fireball (the weakest sort) will be VERY LIKELY to take 1 or 2 instant casualties (thieves, assassins, monks, magic users, and illusionists on average will all die unless they save). The breath of an average sized Red Dragon will kill an 8th level fighter, and almost SURELY kill any other PC that gets hit by it, something that is likely to happen as soon as the monster gets initiative (pretty much 50/50 in round 1). Now, admittedly, you f**d up if you are in melee with a Red Dragon, but still...

Yes, you can survive. You wrap yourself in layers of defenses. I ran a wizard. I rolled up this character with the best stats I ever got (2 18's on 4d6). I was NOT going to get ganked. So, guess what? I utilized utmost skill and caution, and yeah, that character got to 14th level. 90% of the other PCs did not get there, they eventually littered the floor of some pit or the belly of some beast or other. Green Slime was the least of it, you could SEE that and just burn it up with fire!
 

No argument here, those are all things that players might DO/considerations they might deal with in order to control what happens in the next scene, and consequently where things go. OTOH those are not what DW really seems to be ABOUT. I mean, it isn't about "getting to decide what happens next" it is about seeing what happens next. So, for example, I wouldn't see much point in playing a DW character in a way that was contrary to the PC's established personality/values in order to achieve some 'hold' or preserve a bit of gear so you can use it in the next scene. I mean, perhaps that might be the crux of a 'hard choice' within the game, but as just an ordinary practice that you would consider 'skilled' I wouldn't think of that as falling within DW's definition of 'skill', because the game seems so much ABOUT the characters and what story emerges from who they are, rather than emerging from how they optimize their inventory! So, to me, 'skill' is playing in character well. All those other things are there to potentially put pressure on that.

Couple thoughts on this.

1) I think your view of "playing to find out what happens next" is a little off in its orientation. "Playing to find out what happens next" as a GM means "don't prep plot...prep situation...put pressure on the PCs in the way the game intends and let what happens...happen." When it comes to players, its best formulated in Harper's Players' Best Practices in Blades. Bonds aren't a "roleplaying cue." They don't tell you "how you actually are oriented toward a relationship...they're how you think you're oriented toward a person/thing and we test that." This is "playing to find out" or Harper's "build your character through play." When the chips are down, the bullets are flying, things go to hell, and you have to act NOW...

* Will you protect those weaker than you?

* Will you prioritize or repay your oath to x?

* What is the trust relationship between you and y?

* Will you learn to trust the wild/magic or will you be willing to put your lives in other's hands?

Will find out through play. These things are flags that tell the GM "frame conflicts around this (eg the trust relationship between you and another PC or whether fate has dominion over you/the situation etc) and lets find out what happens."

Harper's "as a player your have an expressive role to play...not just a tactical one" is another huge part of this arrangement. Dungeon World is the exact same. Its right there. A tactical role is absolutely a big part of your role to play in this game (as a player of Blades)...but you also have an expressive role to play...be bold, do exciting stuff (don't turtle and talk yourself out of fun...you're sturdy...yu can handle it). I mean if Blades isn't about Skilled Play (as much as thematically expressive play), I don't know what is!

So I think what is happening here is I'm disagreeing with (a) you're orientation toward a players role in Dungeon World (which is basically the same as it is in Blades) and that is because I'm disagreeing with how you've internalized (b) "play to find out" and things like Bonds and Alignment. They're tests to resolve and reveal (we're playing to find out) the nature of your character. If you do this thing vs that thing, that is an expression of your character...that is resolving that bond if it firms up the question inherent to the bond. Bonds don't tell you how to spend your earned Hold, when and how to spend your Adventuring Gear, how to open up the move space for you or your allies, who to save and who to let the fates sort out. We learn about Bonds (etc) when you do that thing (spend Hold this way vs that). Making inventory decisions or spending Coin this way vs that way absolutely reveals (to you and everyone else) something about your character.

You're being tactical and expressive and finding out your character's nature (and the story that is emerging about them and their orientation to/relationship with the world) through the collective suite of decisions that are made in the shared imagined space. Its not one or the other. I think that is one of the difference we're experiencing (I'll get to the other one in my next post).
 

Like @Manbearcat, I am startled by your input here (same goes for @AbdulAlhazred; we so very often seem to come down on the same side on these issues). On the one hand, you seem to be agreeing with the argument of disambiguating GSP from a broader, context-dependent umbrella of Skilled Play. (Maybe I'm misreading you here?) Yet your posts here and subsequently seem to make SP hinge entirely upon Win Conditions that don't easily translate between systems.

I have already expressed my overall ambivalence with the term SP itself (hence, in part, my disambiguation of GSP) and the general bog of definitional arguments, but managing potential consequences towards desired fictional outcomes in a system that requires the GM to honor player success (as one example) certainly seems to fall within a larger umbrella of skilled play to me!

I don't have time for more now, but I am rather mystified by this seeming divide between you and AA on the one side and MBC and myself on the other.
I feel like I must have very poorly spoken, or simply painted myself into a corner. I guess maybe I should just rethink some of this. I mean, at some level if you were playing 1e and doing classic dungeon delves, what is the point? If you survive, you're going to go on to level 2, etc. The character of the game WILL change eventually, which is a bit different from DW, but I guess you have to, at some level, just look at 'exercising skill in navigating the dungeon' as END IN AND OF ITSELF, and levels/gold/etc just being a signifier. I'd note that most games don't get explicated that way. In football it is stated that the goal of the game is to get the ball into the GOAL (pretty obvious name for that, huh!).

So, in terms of DW, if you say "the goal is to make what happens be about what you choose as a player." then OK, skill at doing that is essentially skill with handling the mechanics (and thus the fiction, since they are so linked) of DW.

However, I still feel like the goals of 'GSP' are more explicit and concrete. It is a LOT clearer whether or not you were successful. In a DW game leveling and XP don't really signify the same way. Higher level DW PCs aren't somehow 'better' really. They have more options, sure, but much like 4e, they don't really get 'more powerful' in some kind of objective sense. A level 10 B/X character is QUALITATIVELY different, you know you're playing level 10 and not level 3. You own a tower, you fight elder dragons and demons, which work differently from orcs, etc. There is a lot less of that sense in DW or 4e. Some, but less. It doesn't seem like the central thing.
 

I'm just saying that the process in this game is for the GM to apply pressure on the PCs. They cannot, by skill, avoid some sort of pressure.

This is the crux of our other differences of orientation.

I don't disagree with this, but I'm left wondering...how is this different than any game that is not either Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay...ever?

I mean there is no game where this is not true if the broad formula of play is > legitimate pressure is exerted upon the player's "space" turns into the attendant imposition of decision-points turns into the attendant fallout of action resolution turns into the outgrowth of play that we call "story".

Unless you're running the sort of Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay or Dugeons and Beavers w/ these giant lapses in action/interludes where PCs are under no pressure whatsoever and players are just spending an hour of actual play making biscuits or arranging shelves or window-shopping dresses or flirting with wait staff...if that is your game...then yes, that is an entirely different affair than what we are discussing here.

Games like Dogs in the Vineyard and Mouse Guard and Torchbearer and 4e D&D and Apocalypse World (and all its derivatives) and Blades in the Dark (and all its derivatives) spend zero time on that stuff and the game's engine and ethos constantly puts PCs in that crucible of pressure + decision-point + fallout = find out who these people are.

But the propulsive power and the ethos behind that play loop (there is always a next scene where pressure meets decision point meets fallout = who these people are) doesn't suddenly mean that actual play isn't tactically or strategically vital. "Be expressive" doesn't suddenly equal "your expressive decisions are tactically/strategically inert" or that you don't have a responsibility to invest play with both boldness and tactical competence (because your characters are tough and capable remember...if you forgot the system will remind you).

So, yeah, the players are getting what they want. I don't have a problem with calling some of all this 'skill', but it feels like it is much less a game of 'success and failure' when we play, and more a game of sort of "Soap Opera for D&D Adventurers" where SOMETHING is always rearing its ugly head! I mean, you COULD also do things like frame the next scene 25 years in the future, and describe how the PCs all got to retire happily and gloriously after putting the beat down on the evil wizard, but now his apprentice has come back... ;) There's always a next chapter, at least until 'the end'.

I think this is another thing. I don't look at like a Soap Opera and I'm not oriented to it like a Soap Opera prior to play. I look at it like a Crucible and that is how I'm oriented toward it while I'm GMing. At least in the midst of the experience of the actual play itself. Now maybe upon reflection/post-mortem, it feels like a Soap Opera...but the actual play of it? It feels like a Crucible. I'm testing these people. I'm interested in their stories. I'm rooting for them from afar. But the guy running their opposition? I'm trying to crush them with the structure and means the game invests me with. I'm using their thematic material and the premise of play as a weapon. I want to see how they respond when I turn it against them by filling their life with danger (and through that, find out who they are).

But just because its a continuous process of danger > decision-point > fallout doesn't suddenly mean that the gamestate is perpetually mine. Their job is to wrest the gamestate from me...and in the process we find out about their characters and the world they inhabit. That is the crucible.
 

However, I still feel like the goals of 'GSP' are more explicit and concrete. It is a LOT clearer whether or not you were successful. In a DW game leveling and XP don't really signify the same way. Higher level DW PCs aren't somehow 'better' really. They have more options, sure, but much like 4e, they don't really get 'more powerful' in some kind of objective sense. A level 10 B/X character is QUALITATIVELY different, you know you're playing level 10 and not level 3. You own a tower, you fight elder dragons and demons, which work differently from orcs, etc. There is a lot less of that sense in DW or 4e. Some, but less. It doesn't seem like the central thing.

Here is what I'll say on this.

This is another common refrain I see about Dungeon World. While I agree with the formulation "players overwhelmingly get better on the x axis while remaining relatively stable on the y axis" (I mean I've said those exact words more than a dozen times), I think there is a lot of meat left on that bone. Here is the meat left on that bone:

1) A HUGE part of Skilled Play and the capacity for any given player (through their character) to wrest control of the gamestate from another participant at the table is located on the x axis. I mentioned above how vital it is (and how essential to playing skillfully) to open up the move-space and/or control the fictional positioning. As you increase in breadth of competence, you increase proportionately in your capacity to open up the move-space. Its a feedback loop. You're controlling play and wresting the gamestate more often from the GM by writ of your breadth of capacity to open up the move-space. And that PC build based increase is amplified by (a) your personal (as a player) tactical creativity within that domain and (b) your ability to martial resources and call upon relationships/synergies to amplify your prospects of wresting the gamestate from another participant.

2) The gain on the y-axis is very much under-valued in these conversations because of the proportionality relationship with classic D&D (and how D&D handles monsters broadly and PCs at low levels). A level 9 character has a not-insignificant increased chance of successful action resolution (especially in their thematic shtick). And there are tangible amplifiers (suddenly you're getting take +1 forward when acting more often) and intangible amplifiers (you're controlling the move-space more often so you're putting yourself in better position to leverage strengths or mitigate weaknesses or even just to attack a problem at all) to these increases in your distribution of results.

Further, some moves + the collection of other moves become extreeeeeeeemely powerful. A Paladin with Impervious Defender + Ever Onward + Bloody Aegis + Cleric Spells and solid Charisma/Wisdom/Strength/Con? A Fighter w/ 18 Str, 16 Wis, all the damage buffs, Interrogator, Seeing Red and Through Death's Eyes? Mother of god.



So while I agree broadly with the general sentiment of "the power curve vs the obstacles the PCs face in DW and 4e is very different than how that works out in Classic D&D", (a) the weight of that statement on the paradigm of Skilled Play doesn't move me and (b) there is more to be discussed than just leaving it at that.
 
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The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
A big part of what we seem to be discussing is the subtlety with which agendas of play are presented and carried out, whether in reference to the explicit ones that are so definitive to games like BITD and DW, or to the implicit ones of any other game.

My experience of Story Now games are that they certainly instruct you (the GM) to add to the fiction (in ways that don't contradict previously established fiction) in order to complicate the lives of team PC on a moment to moment basis, especially on failed rolls. Done with insufficient GM skill will absolutely create a scenario where the players will feel as though the story itself is choking them in this way. In Masks at least, the agendas concerning being a fan of the player characters, and the advice about not doing too many hard moves, as well about pacing, are framed as devices to help the GM not do that. This is of course, also the case outside of Story Now play, a DND GM that adds monsters that weren't there before into the area the players escape to because that GM is trying to keep their players in hot water can do the same. Its literally a question of pacing, tension, and basic scenario design whether the players are having too much pressure applied to them.

The difference is that Story Now games approach this question from an aspect of reminding the GM that allowing the tension to release and players to have their victory is their job, with some aids. DND and other games more like it, handle this by framing the GM as a game designer, and then teaching them how to create scenarios where this will naturally occur (once players have overcome the challenges, they are victorious and the tension naturally releases.) This requires the GM to learn two stances, and transition between them-- a designer stance where they engage in level and scenario design, and referee stance where they 'run' the content they've created. Reading GM facing material outlines the guidelines and tools for both. But there's also, I'm conjecturing, essentially a third 'Director' stance that hybridizes the two stances so design can take place during what would otherwise be referee stance, and GMs dip their toe into it to greater or lesser degrees in traditional games.

If you've ever been playing DND, and decided to add monsters, or subtract monsters to adjust the pacing and tension of the adventure during play, that's Director Stance. I would argue that in many ways Story Now GMs live in Director Stance, and that's what the system of moves (as it relates to GMing) is actually codifying. The way Agendas are presented are the things that they are using their moves to try and achieve, the right balance where the fiction is believable (according to genre norms and the table's tastes), where players feel they have agency, and where interesting things happen everyone explores together.

The controversy of Director Stance, is that since the ideal is to play to find out what happens, for everyone including the GM, the idea that what happens would be curated in this way is a naturally occurring tension that BITD (the system I've been recently reading in spare hours in preparation to eventually run it a bit) resolves by disclaiming some of those decisions to the players so that no one holds all the cards, making the result intrinsically emergent. I'm speaking of the 'Judgement Calls' section of the rules, where players get to decide whether a solution to a problem is reasonable, while the GM determines what the problems for them to solve are. In what's being referred to as GSP (and probably in my more lenient variety of SP that includes character optimization and such) the GM has the final say of whether the solution is reasonable (although in most cases, the rules provide an authority for the players and GM to defer to, which is a soft restriction on the GM's own ability to Calvinball.)

In both cases, there is an effort being made by the rules which parcel out responsibility to the participants to convey the proper mindset that responsibility should be approached with. For example, players in BITD could certainly decide that seducing a regular non-magical door into opening with gentle caresses is a reasonable approach, but they wouldn't because it would break the rules of the shared fiction and damage the tone of the game they're striving for. They have the power to Calvinball, to an extent, but a sense of how that power is to be used that Calvinball lacks. Meanwhile in DND, the GM certainly could drop a random army of Dragons on low level players for guaranteed TPK, but they're told their job is designing an engaging scenario so again, the power to Calvinball with instructions that you shouldn't (which are implicit in the encounter design rules, and often explicit in GM facing material.)

GSP/SP seems to be the intersection of a well designed scenario adjudicated fairly, with the choices of players within that context that creates an environment rich with agency and consequences from that agency that follow a logical progression. Director Stance empowers the GM to 'break' this by performing ad-hoc modifications to the scenario that could but don't have to strain the intrinsic 'competitive integrity' that was built into it if Designer Stance was performed correctly. Its a powerful tool that allows the GM to fix mistakes made in Designer Stance, but its powerful enough to break the game if they misuse it to say, preserve tension that the players 'fairly' earned the resolution of.

Judgement Calls in BITD give players some of that same power to damage the 'natural' integrity of the scenario with unrealistic solutions to problems, while allowing them to make the imaginary space even more 'fair' by checking the GM's power to Calvinball them by insisting to the GM that a fair solution to a problem, is indeed fair.

The real controversy here, is probably down to how much you trust PCs in the abstract, not to Calvinball you with that power. For some, the need to use every resource at hand to win would pollute their use of that responsibility, while for others their sense of duty to the quality of the fiction itself would stay their hand. DND doesn't really care in the same way, because the only person with the power to Calvinball has no motivation to do so, since they aren't trying to win in the first place, just create an engaging scenario, Calvinball would be antithetical to their goals unless they've convinced themselves that 'fairness' doesn't matter, which is how we get some forms of railroading where the GM Calvinballs the players out of the logical consequences of their actions in a way that is both insistent and obvious.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I feel like I must have very poorly spoken, or simply painted myself into a corner. I guess maybe I should just rethink some of this. I mean, at some level if you were playing 1e and doing classic dungeon delves, what is the point? If you survive, you're going to go on to level 2, etc. The character of the game WILL change eventually, which is a bit different from DW, but I guess you have to, at some level, just look at 'exercising skill in navigating the dungeon' as END IN AND OF ITSELF, and levels/gold/etc just being a signifier. I'd note that most games don't get explicated that way. In football it is stated that the goal of the game is to get the ball into the GOAL (pretty obvious name for that, huh!).

So, in terms of DW, if you say "the goal is to make what happens be about what you choose as a player." then OK, skill at doing that is essentially skill with handling the mechanics (and thus the fiction, since they are so linked) of DW.

However, I still feel like the goals of 'GSP' are more explicit and concrete. It is a LOT clearer whether or not you were successful. In a DW game leveling and XP don't really signify the same way. Higher level DW PCs aren't somehow 'better' really. They have more options, sure, but much like 4e, they don't really get 'more powerful' in some kind of objective sense. A level 10 B/X character is QUALITATIVELY different, you know you're playing level 10 and not level 3. You own a tower, you fight elder dragons and demons, which work differently from orcs, etc. There is a lot less of that sense in DW or 4e. Some, but less. It doesn't seem like the central thing.
From what I can tell successful DW play looks much the same as unsuccessful DW play. Like over the course of a campaign how can I tell which players played the game most skillful and which the least?
 

This is the crux of our other differences of orientation.

I don't disagree with this, but I'm left wondering...how is this different than any game that is not either Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay...ever?

I mean there is no game where this is not true if the broad formula of play is > legitimate pressure is exerted upon the player's "space" turns into the attendant imposition of decision-points turns into the attendant fallout of action resolution turns into the outgrowth of play that we call "story".

Unless you're running the sort of Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay or Dugeons and Beavers w/ these giant lapses in action/interludes where PCs are under no pressure whatsoever and players are just spending an hour of actual play making biscuits or arranging shelves or window-shopping dresses or flirting with wait staff...if that is your game...then yes, that is an entirely different affair than what we are discussing here.

Games like Dogs in the Vineyard and Mouse Guard and Torchbearer and 4e D&D and Apocalypse World (and all its derivatives) and Blades in the Dark (and all its derivatives) spend zero time on that stuff and the game's engine and ethos constantly puts PCs in that crucible of pressure + decision-point + fallout = find out who these people are.

But the propulsive power and the ethos behind that play loop (there is always a next scene where pressure meets decision point meets fallout = who these people are) doesn't suddenly mean that actual play isn't tactically or strategically vital. "Be expressive" doesn't suddenly equal "your expressive decisions are tactically/strategically inert" or that you don't have a responsibility to invest play with both boldness and tactical competence (because your characters are tough and capable remember...if you forgot the system will remind you).



I think this is another thing. I don't look at like a Soap Opera and I'm not oriented to it like a Soap Opera prior to play. I look at it like a Crucible and that is how I'm oriented toward it while I'm GMing. At least in the midst of the experience of the actual play itself. Now maybe upon reflection/post-mortem, it feels like a Soap Opera...but the actual play of it? It feels like a Crucible. I'm testing these people. I'm interested in their stories. I'm rooting for them from afar. But the guy running their opposition? I'm trying to crush them with the structure and means the game invests me with. I'm using their thematic material and the premise of play as a weapon. I want to see how they respond when I turn it against them by filling their life with danger (and through that, find out who they are).

But just because its a continuous process of danger > decision-point > fallout doesn't suddenly mean that the gamestate is perpetually mine. Their job is to wrest the gamestate from me...and in the process we find out about their characters and the world they inhabit. That is the crucible.
Yeah, I think we're just maybe a bit less dramatic about it, lol. Anyway, the players, at some level, ARE pretty much in charge of the game state/trajectory. As a participant I might, in the GM role, introduce some elements of my own of course, but I don't really put anything into the game the players didn't ASK for. If orcs show up, you can bet that the dwarf has been sharpening his axe and grumbling about how much more satisfying it is to dull it on orc necks! If the PCs set out for 'orc mountain' by gosh you wanna bet what sorta monster they run into? Giant Spiders of course! (j/k).
 

From what I can tell successful DW play looks much the same as unsuccessful DW play. Like over the course of a campaign how can I tell which players played the game most skillful and which the least?

Check out my post upthread about the 4 Win Cons and measures of Skilled Play in DW.

That should cover your question above. Outside of that, the broad answer is, once you run enough games it becomes extremely apparent who is a skillful player, who is an average player, and who is neither.
 

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