D&D General Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell

[TaranTheWanderer]

Having played a Wizard from 3rd to 12 and who owned the spell Grease, I can attest that it scales pretty much equally through all levels. I have used it 0 times equally through all levels.

It's just not a great spell. IF they fail their save before they just walk out of the area, your melee people can't engage without having to save vs the effects and your ranged attackers get disadvantage. On the next round, the enemy stands up and walks out of the area. I have never run into a situation where I thought, "This is a perfect situation for Grease!". I've always had better options. I'd originally taken it because I thought it would be super-useful. And it probably has its uses - I just never ran into that situation.

If the fighter were to be able to pull Cuchulain or Hercules style feats this would be very different.

This.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

We got some use out of it in Curse of Strahd. We used it to create a chokepoint in a werewolf den with a cleric using Spiritual Guardians, and the barbarian blocking the way out of the grease.

 

[MarkB]

No, it only costs 1/2 your move in 5e rather than a full move, but Grease is an absolutely devastating spell at endgame against (a) plodders (b with bad Dex saves and (c) multiattack melee that they rely upon for their bulk of their threat. Plop it down at a chokepoint or in an open area to kite against Dex-deficient + melee dependent personnel, save your Concentration, and do other stuff.

My least fond memory of the spell was running an encounter where the PCs were getting some McGuffin in a Far Realm alien ship’s cargo bay (I was running the dungeon script for this railroad of a game that I intermittently GMed for this kid’s dad who would often flake on them).

It was level 18 (3 PCs) vs a wave encounter of ATST-like walker tanks w/ pilot + infantry personnel inside (get in room and deploy infantry while pilots man the tanks). First wave was low HP (basically mooks) drone flyers to soften them up. There were still some stray drones left up on round 3 when the ATSTs came. They were reskinned Fire Giants exactly as above; (basically tanks) meh Move + bad Dex Save + melee multi attack 10 reach + a plinky single attack ray (like a Boulder) + a 5, 6 Recharge big gun.

The Wizard had Grease down on the bay door they were streaming through straightaway and the next round had a Grease in the room for the team to move from cover to cover to kite and kill any ATSTs that made it out of the kill-box.

This was supposed to be a mega deadly encounter according to the CR budget the guy had put out there. The clustereff that actually ensued was titanic. It was a Benny Hill theme of action denial of melee multiattack and kiting around the cargo bay. Once the ATST’s spent their 5/6 recharge big gun, they were typically routed with their damage output per round decimated compared to what would be ideally realized.

Once out of the Grease, spending Dash to try to run around the Grease in the Bay to get to a PC or falling back on the crappy at-will ranged is utterly punitive. Eventually I just had both the infantry AND pilots leave the ATST’s to try to engage because while squishy fodder, at least they had the move + higher Dex save and there were more of them so I figured Bounded Accuracy would somewhat save the encounter (it didn’t save it, but the Benny Hill theme was at least turned off).

This has to be something people have experienced at endgame against things like the various Giants, a horde of Ogres/Undead, Golems in ancient tombs, etc. any Brute-like plodder w/ poor Dex save where action denial of their melee multiattack (primary threat) nerfs them significantly. It’s particularly devastating against choke points and in areas where you can kite. Dex is the worst physical Save in the game for monsters (only attack Int or Wis instead). Dinos, Treants, Zombies, Dire Animals. There are tons of low dex, reliance upon melee creatures that are easily kites or can have their action economy wrecked by Grease.

I looked into alternatives after this fight. Even if the GM would have reskinned a Stone Golem rather than Giant it would have been even worse because Advanatage on Saves doesn’t make up for the awful (even worse) Dex save + no actual ranged ability at all. Strategically placed Grease against this kind of enemy personnel + a Team PC that can even marginally kite (I’m not talking kitted out for kiting…just capable) is devastating to an up tiered CR encounter at endgame.

After my feedback to the guy, he tailored all future Mothership-as-Dungeon encounters around the Grease spell (no more ATSTs/Brute enemy personnel). I don’t love that as a solve, but whatever.

It's a 10 foot square. A re-skinned fire giant could practically step over it, let alone jump it.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

No, it only costs 1/2 your move in 5e rather than a full move, but Grease is an absolutely devastating spell at endgame against (a) plodders (b with bad Dex saves and (c) multiattack melee that they rely upon for their bulk of their threat. Plop it down at a chokepoint or in an open area to kite against Dex-deficient + melee dependent personnel, save your Concentration, and do other stuff.

"Plodder" is kind of an understatement isn't it? I mean, they need to have a move of less than 20' and a STR of less than 11 - otherwise they can just make a long jump over the patch of grease. Really low-STR, extra slow moving targets are kind of a narrow set of enemies. (RAW if you use the Xanathar's rules then their speed doesn't matter, they'll just be in the air until their next turn if the jump doesn't fit within their movement, but a lot of people house rule out that rule).

This has to be something people have experienced at endgame against things like the various Giants, a horde of Ogres/Undead, Golems in ancient tombs, etc. any Brute-like plodder w/ poor Dex save where action denial of their melee multiattack (primary threat) nerfs them significantly. It’s particularly devastating against choke points and in areas where you can kite. Dex is the worst physical Save in the game for monsters (only attack Int or Wis instead). Dinos, Treants, Zombies, Dire Animals. There are tons of low dex, reliance upon melee creatures that are easily kites or can have their action economy wrecked by Grease.

Giants, ogres, golems, dinosaurs, treants, and dire animals can all casually (no roll needed) long jump over a grease spell, a lot of them (those with 22+ STR) can standing jump over it. A lot of these can easily be kited by a PC with any extra movement or with a slowing effect (like 0-level ray of frost). Zombies are not really a high level threat, and the grease spell is pointless since with only a 20' move they can be casually kited by regular PCs who have a ranged attack if there's nothing stopping infinite retreat.

An 18' fire giant being unable to get past a 10'x10' grease patch without stepping in it is like a 6' person being unable to get past a 3' 4" wide grease patch without stepping in it - it pretty much just requires a long step, not even a real jump, and I'd describe the long jump over it that way.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

We got some use out of it in Curse of Strahd. We used it to create a chokepoint in a werewolf den with a cleric using Spiritual Guardians, and the barbarian blocking the way out of the grease.

What purpose did the grease serve in the chokepoint? That is, if you just had the cleric standing around with spiritual guardians, and the barbarian blocking the way past, would the fight have been different?

Other than possibly causing some werewolves to lose their attack on the first turn on their way in (have to dash to stand up if they fail the save with less than half move remaining) or stay prone for a less effective attack (therefore attack at disadvantage and let the barbarian skip reckless attack for advantage), I don't see that grease has any effect on the fight you described. It sounds like the werewolves have nowhere to move after they engage the barb/cleric blockade, so on subsequent turns a failed save just means they spend half of their movement to stand which they weren't going to use anyway.

 

[Manbearcat]

"Plodder" is kind of an understatement isn't it? I mean, they need to have a move of less than 20' and a STR of less than 11 - otherwise they can just make a long jump over the patch of grease. Really low-STR, extra slow moving targets are kind of a narrow set of enemies. (RAW if you use the Xanathar's rules then their speed doesn't matter, they'll just be in the air until their next turn if the jump doesn't fit within their movement, but a lot of people house rule out that rule).



Giants, ogres, golems, dinosaurs, treants, and dire animals can all casually (no roll needed) long jump over a grease spell, a lot of them (those with 22+ STR) can standing jump over it. A lot of these can easily be kited by a PC with any extra movement or with a slowing effect (like 0-level ray of frost). Zombies are not really a high level threat, and the grease spell is pointless since with only a 20' move they can be casually kited by regular PCs who have a ranged attack if there's nothing stopping infinite retreat.

An 18' fire giant being unable to get past a 10'x10' grease patch without stepping in it is like a 6' person being unable to get past a 3' 4" wide grease patch without stepping in it - it pretty much just requires a long step, not even a real jump, and I'd describe the long jump over it that way.

That isn't really how I've seen it deployed typically on chokepoints. On chokepoints I've seen it used (like in this case) > Ready and cast at creature's (tank in this case) feet when they have already spent enough move/action economy to make it punitive > Cast + failed Dex save (this Enchanter could Portent to ensure a failed save if the lead tank somehow miraculously saved) and stand from Prone on 1st monster = monster behind can't long jump over it due to the obstruction. That is what happened here. It effectively (as a 1st level spell) caused action denial by proxy of 4 tanks.

On a battlefield (like the Bay here), you typically have a bunch of other difficult/blocking terrain (cargo + pillars + ships in the scenario above) so you put Grease in a spot with adjacent blocking terrain so you can't just jump it (because you'll be ending in an illegal blocking terrain square). So effectively, you shut down a much larger area than you would otherwise, forcing creatures to move around the area...basically action denial/catch-22 by proxy of screwing with action/move economy via amplifying the screw-job of the existing terrain.

I couldn't tell you how much action denial/catch-22 by proxy it caused here. It screwed up one round of pursuit from a pair of tanks and then I bailed on their gambit (the Tanks HPs were precariously low at that point) and had the infantry/pilots eject and it basically turned into a Star Wars rifle fire from cover and double back/around the Grease/Blocking Terrain feature.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

What purpose did the grease serve in the chokepoint? That is, if you just had the cleric standing around with spiritual guardians, and the barbarian blocking the way past, would the fight have been different?

Other than possibly causing some werewolves to lose their attack on the first turn on their way in (have to dash to stand up if they fail the save with less than half move remaining) or stay prone for a less effective attack (therefore attack at disadvantage and let the barbarian skip reckless attack for advantage), I don't see that grease has any effect on the fight you described. It sounds like the werewolves have nowhere to move after they engage the barb/cleric blockade, so on subsequent turns a failed save just means they spend half of their movement to stand which they weren't going to use anyway.

It's been awhile since that game, but I believe the set up was Grease, Barbarian in front, and cleric immediately behind with spiritual guardians. Which meant the grease and guardians overlapped, which made movement in there pretty difficult. Entering causes save vs prone, get up with half movement, and speed is halved from both being difficult terrain and from the guardians spell(which just halves the movement). Kept them from retreating efficiently and blunted the initial assaults(There were several waves of werewolves). Other than that, free advantage for the barbarian in subsequent rounds was still handy.

Did it completely change the fight? No, probably not. But it was useful.

 

[MarkB]

That isn't really how I've seen it deployed typically on chokepoints. On chokepoints I've seen it used (like in this case) > Ready and cast at creature's (tank in this case) feet when they have already spent enough move/action economy to make it punitive > Cast + failed Dex save (this Enchanter could Portent to ensure a failed save if the lead tank somehow miraculously saved) and stand from Prone on 1st monster = monster behind can't long jump over it due to the obstruction. That is what happened here. It effectively (as a 1st level spell) caused action denial by proxy of 4 tanks.

So, that's a very specific amount of movement to have been used, for the lead creature to have just enough movement left to stand up and become an obstacle, but not enough to actually move out of the way. Quite miraculously specific, in fact - even if the PCs saw how much movement the critters had used coming in from outside, how would they know this foe's movement speed?

And the creature could always choose to remain prone to allow its ally to leap past it.

On a battlefield (like the Bay here), you typically have a bunch of other difficult/blocking terrain (cargo + pillars + ships in the scenario above) so you put Grease in a spot with adjacent blocking terrain so you can't just jump it (because you'll be ending in an illegal blocking terrain square). So effectively, you shut down a much larger area than you would otherwise, forcing creatures to move around the area...basically action denial/catch-22 by proxy of screwing with action/move economy via amplifying the screw-job of the existing terrain.

I couldn't tell you how much action denial/catch-22 by proxy it caused here. It screwed up one round of pursuit from a pair of tanks and then I bailed on their gambit (the Tanks HPs were precariously low at that point) and had the infantry/pilots eject and it basically turned into a Star Wars rifle fire from cover and double back/around the Grease/Blocking Terrain feature.

So, there were cargo crates (and presumably cargo loaders) in this bay along with entire ships (which could potentially be powered up). So, instead of the grease, the players could just have shifted some spare crates or vessels into place to completely deny access to the bay until they were done. Or an enemy could climb or leap atop a crate, thus escaping the grease and gaining a height advantage against its foes.

 

[Manbearcat]

It's been awhile since that game, but I believe the set up was Grease, Barbarian in front, and cleric immediately behind with spiritual guardians. Which meant the grease and guardians overlapped, which made movement in there pretty difficult. Entering causes save vs prone, get up with half movement, and speed is halved from both being difficult terrain and from the guardians spell(which just halves the movement). Kept them from retreating efficiently and blunted the initial assaults(There were several waves of werewolves). Other than that, free advantage for the barbarian in subsequent rounds was still handy.

Did it completely change the fight? No, probably not. But it was useful.

Yeah, this "jumping is the solution to Grease" answer doesn't do the work in play that is being proposed when Team PC is casting it strategically; Ready shenanigans on lead creature to eff up a conga line at a choke point or cast it adjacent to creatures/PC front line/blocking terrain configuration which can't be jumped over/into (thus amplifying existing terrain structures or basically imposing a "walk through this grease and suffer the consequence or we will range you to death where you stand" dynamic).

That is a beefy effect for a 1st level spell. If you're a clever, high level PC Enchanter, that is a great, low cost control choice vs Dex and then you use the rest of your suite of abilities to attack Wis + Int and loadout surveillance/utility.

 

[Manbearcat]

So, that's a very specific amount of movement to have been used, for the lead creature to have just enough movement left to stand up and become an obstacle, but not enough to actually move out of the way. Quite miraculously specific, in fact - even if the PCs saw how much movement the critters had used coming in from outside, how would they know this foe's movement speed?

And the creature could always choose to remain prone to allow its ally to leap past it.

So, there were cargo crates (and presumably cargo loaders) in this bay along with entire ships (which could potentially be powered up). So, instead of the grease, the players could just have shifted some spare crates or vessels into place to completely deny access to the bay until they were done. Or an enemy could climb or leap atop a crate, thus escaping the grease and gaining a height advantage against its foes.

1) I don't understand what you're saying with the first part. Its pretty straight-forward to infer speed. Most every creature is 30-40 speed. And then...the player can pay attention to the action economy being spent by the monster/creature and the squares being counted in the spending? Its not clear to me how this is some sort of big deal.

2) You can't just leap over PCs or prone creatures of Large to Huge. You can't clear obstacles of 5 ft heigh/girth (or more) with a horizontal jump. So no, you can't just jump over prone tanks or 6 ft PCs.

3) Spending a giant amount of action economy to array a terrain configuration of a Ship's Bay might be a thing if you have tons and tons of time without scrutiny or random encounters. Its another thing entirely if you've just landed and now you're repelling the boarding force. In that case, you don't have the action economy/time you're expressing. You have a couple rounds to disembark from your pod that you used to get there and get ready for combat. In that case, the 1-action, action economy of something like Grease is very nice to have.