D&D 5E Arguing for Advantage

[overgeeked]

Along with the already linked Sly Flourish article on Cinematic Advantage...

Replace Flanking with Cinematic Advantage

Instead of using the optional flanking rule, offer deals to players to trade ability checks using in-world features to gain advantage on their next attack. Chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master's Guide offe...

slyflourish.com

DungeonCraft did a video on it recently...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I had a Player with an Assassin who thought he could get Surprise multiple times during a combat encounter.

In the past, during a Session Zero, I have asked Players to tell me what their Characters are doing rather than what they themselves are doing. I will decide what needs to be rolled, if anything.

For instance, tell me that your character, "is shaking the hand of this suspicious stranger we met in the forest, and patting him down nonchalantly in order to see if there is any 'funny business' going on." Do that rather than grab a d20 and say, "I roll to disbelieve!"

Half the time I won't even ask for a roll, I'll just give you the information you seek, like, "this person is garbed in illusion, in fact the seem to be naked, as you only feel bare skin. It's probably that hag you're looking for."

I like that approach... And then I had a DM where I tried that approach and he just didn't react to that. Only when I finally explicitely said: I disbelieve I got my rol...

Probably a session 0 discussing this is a good idea.

 

[Norton]

I don't know if anyone else experiences this, but I have an aarakocra in two of my groups and they seem to be chosen specifically to gain advantage of every kind. One player continually flies ahead, gets the lay of a future encounter (Stealth and Perception checks withstanding), and then returns with a plan to "land on this" or "pop up on that" for a surprise round – which I always have to remind him doesn't really exist. The mere mention of rolling initiative before or after determining surprise makes him grumpy. It's only made worse by his insisting to see maps in advance, which isn't really possible on the table or with VTTs.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but I'm actually considering banning aarakocra from my PC race options. They seem to attract damage-shy players who annoyingly extend their turns beyond the patience of the group in an effort to power game every inch or pixel of a map. They also like to portray their characters less like exotic winged creatures and more like humans with jet packs, with requests to make them taller and permission to kiss NPCs with their beaks like that's a normal thing. They're also the only bird species with humanoid genitalia, I've come to learn.

 

[overgeeked]

I don't know if anyone else experiences this, but I have an aarakocra in two of my groups and they seem to be chosen specifically to gain advantage of every kind. One player continually flies ahead, gets the lay of a future encounter (Stealth and Perception checks withstanding), and then returns with a plan to "land on this" or "pop up on that" for a surprise round – which I always have to remind him doesn't really exist. The mere mention of rolling initiative before or after determining surprise makes him grumpy. It's only made worse by his insisting to see maps in advance, which isn't really possible on the table or with VTTs.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but I'm actually considering banning aarakocra from my PC race options. They seem to attract damage-shy players who annoyingly extend their turns beyond the patience of the group in an effort to power game every inch or pixel of a map. They also like to portray their characters less like exotic winged creatures and more like humans with jet packs, with requests to make them taller and permission to kiss NPCs with their beaks like that's a normal thing. They're also the only bird species with humanoid genitalia, I've come to learn.

Some players just want to win...despite RPGs not being games you can win. It's a steady stream of players. They've been with the game since the beginning. They focus almost exclusively on the game part. See also munchkins, power gamers, min/maxers, etc. For me, this is where the trite big tent, everything is awesome, every style of play is equally valid nonsense falls apart. Clearly this isn't cooperative play. Clearly this is gaming the system. Clearly this style of play is disruptive.

You're better off outright banning them, as you say.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

I like that approach... And then I had a DM where I tried that approach and he just didn't react to that. Only when I finally explicitely said: I disbelieve I got my rol...

Probably a session 0 discussing this is a good idea.

Well, you still had fun right?

A lot of this discussion is just about splitting hairs. Meaning, I have a preferred style of game play but that doesn't keep me from having fun otherwise. Everyone's different.

Perhaps when you run a game as the Dungeon Master you can have a Session Zero and gently encourage your Players to adapt to your favored gaming style. It doesn't always work and nobodies perfect, but as long as we're all having fun and coming back to the table week after week--we have succeeded.

 

[jgsugden]

Unless they violate the rules, I tend to give the PCs the benefit of the doubt. If there is an argument they had cover from the golem, they get the cover, usually. If the assassin gets the jump on an enemy and then breaks of the combat so that they can go for surprise again - totally possible. They're the heroes of the story.

When players 'accidentally' forget the drawback of a rule ... and do it over and over and try to sneak one past me - that irks me. So the player that tries to do a multi-attack with their haste action even through I've reminded them repeatedly that they can't... I have a private talk with them to ask them to learn the rules in question better.

 

[iserith]

I don't know if anyone else experiences this, but I have an aarakocra in two of my groups and they seem to be chosen specifically to gain advantage of every kind. One player continually flies ahead, gets the lay of a future encounter (Stealth and Perception checks withstanding), and then returns with a plan to "land on this" or "pop up on that" for a surprise round – which I always have to remind him doesn't really exist. The mere mention of rolling initiative before or after determining surprise makes him grumpy. It's only made worse by his insisting to see maps in advance, which isn't really possible on the table or with VTTs.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but I'm actually considering banning aarakocra from my PC race options. They seem to attract damage-shy players who annoyingly extend their turns beyond the patience of the group in an effort to power game every inch or pixel of a map. They also like to portray their characters less like exotic winged creatures and more like humans with jet packs, with requests to make them taller and permission to kiss NPCs with their beaks like that's a normal thing. They're also the only bird species with humanoid genitalia, I've come to learn.

I would say don't include the race in your games if it doesn't fit the theme of the setting or campaign, not because it can be used in some situations to the players' advantage. Scouting ahead to get an idea of the challenges that are coming is just smart play whether there is a flying PC or not. Showing the players a map before they get there is actually exceedingly easy on VTTs (depending on which one you use, I guess). And you can always say that if the aarakocra scout is spotted, then there's no chance of surprise within a certain time frame since the NPCs/monsters are expecting trouble.

Consider also that if some of your adventure locations have a ceiling (aka a dungeon) then the aarakocra's flight might not come into play all that much. Even in the outdoors they have to deal with cover provided by overhanging trees or other terrain features or enemies who just drop prone to impart disadvantage to the flying PC's ranged attacks. And if an aarakocra PC is taken out by ranged attacks, that's one failed death save right off the bat when they hit the ground.

Being able to fly is pretty good, but as with anything there are some downsides.

 

[Norton]

Scouting ahead to get an idea of the challenges that are coming is just smart play whether there is a flying PC or not. Showing the players a map before they get there is actually exceedingly easy on VTTs (depending on which one you use, I guess).

For me there is "smart play", and "dominating, scared and selfish play". My example was meant to illustrate how the player was more or less monopolizing time and grandstanding. Flyers that don't have to spend resources tend to do that because, well, they can. And I guess I'll have to figure out how to show the VTT or table map to just one player and not the others. Sure, you can ask everyone to hide their eyes or simply show the table and ask that they play along but that adds an awkward hiccup in the game and ruins the reveal which is always a fun moment in my games – all because one player insisted on being special and flying ahead (they are rarely asked to do so).

Again, I'm talking about players who micro-manage play in an effort to avoid, well, playing. My retort is always "Play D&D!" because what's happening is they're power gaming an encounter made by someone in about a half hour who is also playing the game, not a staff of game-testers who know players will just curse and re-spawn.

There's a way to play every race so that it works. Aarakocra in particular make it easy for someone to monopolize gameplay in an effort to break encounters that are designed by another player in the game and limiting them through terrain always feels overly contrived which weakens immersion. And as I said, not a one has role played them correctly. If you're going to be afforded the benefit of free flight, get weird.

 

[iserith]

For me there is "smart play", and "dominating, scared and selfish play". My example was meant to illustrate how the player was more or less monopolizing time and grandstanding. Flyers that don't have to spend resources tend to do that because, well, they can. And I guess I'll have to figure out how to show the VTT or table map to just one player and not the others. Sure, you can ask everyone to hide their eyes or simply show the table and ask that they play along but that adds an awkward hiccup in the game and ruins the reveal which is always a fun moment in my games – all because one player insisted on being special and flying ahead (they are rarely asked to do so).

Again, I'm talking about players who micro-manage play in an effort to avoid, well, playing. My retort is always "Play D&D!" because what's happening is they're power gaming an encounter made by someone in about a half hour who is also playing the game, not a staff of game-testers who know players will just curse and re-spawn.

There's a way to play every race so that it works. Aarakocra in particular make it easy for someone to monopolize gameplay in an effort to break encounters that are designed by another player in the game and limiting them through terrain always feels overly contrived which weakens immersion. And as I said, not a one has role played them correctly. If you're going to be afforded the benefit of free flight, get weird.

It sounds like the issue isn't so much with a flying PC as it is with certain player behaviors that are impacting gameplay. Scouting ahead is a normal part of play and shouldn't be unusual in a D&D context or take up a lot of time or spotlight. If anything flying just speeds it up. Especially with a VTT. If the player is taking an unfair amount of spotlight for whatever reason, then that's deserving of a conversation about how to share spotlight more equitably in a way that still allows the player to engage in smart play.

Adding a tree or a ceiling or fog or an overhanging rock or whatever is part of presenting a believable world - which makes the game more immersive, not less - and is not simply a contrivance to confound a flying PC. It just so happens these things can be a challenge for said PCs. Many DMs in my experience, with flying PCs or not, don't give us much thought about the terrain and its impact on the scene as they could.

As far as portraying aarakocra, I don't make it my business to tell other people how they should portray their characters. They can be as normal or weird as they want. And I don't see how "free flight" is any reason that a PC must be portrayed in any particular way. But hey, if you want the players to portray characters in particular ways, there's always personal characteristics and Inspiration mechanics.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I don't know if anyone else experiences this, but I have an aarakocra in two of my groups and they seem to be chosen specifically to gain advantage of every kind. One player continually flies ahead, gets the lay of a future encounter (Stealth and Perception checks withstanding), and then returns with a plan to "land on this" or "pop up on that" for a surprise round – which I always have to remind him doesn't really exist. The mere mention of rolling initiative before or after determining surprise makes him grumpy. It's only made worse by his insisting to see maps in advance, which isn't really possible on the table or with VTTs.

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but I'm actually considering banning aarakocra from my PC race options. They seem to attract damage-shy players who annoyingly extend their turns beyond the patience of the group in an effort to power game every inch or pixel of a map. They also like to portray their characters less like exotic winged creatures and more like humans with jet packs, with requests to make them taller and permission to kiss NPCs with their beaks like that's a normal thing. They're also the only bird species with humanoid genitalia, I've come to learn.

You got something against skilled play??