Anyone Else Tired of The Tyranny of Novelty?

[TheSword]

And yet, for 4 of the last 8 years, it's been mostly adapting the old to the "new 8 years ago" mechanics of 5E. 5E Itself was niether novel nor traditional at release - all the concepts were in use on other, successful (well, profitable, really), games. But they pulled a lot of non-novel mechanics from a variety of sources... the only thing novel about D&D 5e was the specific combination. But that was lightning in a jar. They expressed the core class tropes in the simplified 5E mechanics, while yet preserving the AD&D and 3E class fel

It's the right combination of increasing complexity over time, and easy core mechanic applied very broadly throughout all the class mechanics.

4E was as good a game as 5E... it just wasn't the feel any older edition (pre-4E) fans were expecting.

And, let's be honest ... the Campbellian Monomyth sells. It sells books, it sells movies, and it sells RPGs... And 5E, much like BXCM, has the same four tiers of play... but slightly different level widths, fitting 36 vs 20 levels. And both ground deeply in the monomyth.

The last several years have been proof positive that there is no tyranny of the new... because WotC's been stuck in "Rework old stuff" and "Port setting from our other big game"....

On the other hand, that's not uncommon across the industry. New editions of dozens of older games in the last 24 months... Arcanum, T2K, TOR, CortexPlus/Prime, and many others.

Whether a ‘rule’ or technique is original or not is a topic best left to smarter people than me.

I just see D&D and Paizo becoming ever wackier in their pursuit of novel adventures. What were Paizo’s last three? PC Policemen and women; a gladiatorial tournament and next magic school faculty. God forbid we see the beauty of something like Curse of the Crimson Throne again.

 

[Aldarc]

I just see D&D and Paizo becoming ever wackier in their pursuit of novel adventures.

What were Paizo’s last three? PC Policemen and women; a gladiatorial tournament and next magic school faculty. God forbid we see the beauty of something like Curse of the Crimson Throne again.

Your "wacky" is someone else's "fantastical." Fantasy adventure in our hobby has grown beyond only dungeon crawling in a whitewashed faux-Medieval Europe and saving sacrificial damsels in distress. Our sense of fantasy has widened in scope. It has also evolved with the influence of streams like Critical Role.

I'm not sure if this is so much an issue of novelty, but, rather, the natural evolution of our hobby, particularly among the more mainstream markets.

 

[Lanefan]

Oh, yes there is, whether you intended it or not.

You've complained about the tyranny of novelty; nostalgia/conservativsm is the antithesis of novelty.

Though these sometimes work at cross purposes, they're not polar opposites. One can, for example, be conservative and innovative at the same time simply by a) basing one's innovation(s) on sound and previously-tested bases and b) testing the innovation sixteen ways from Sunday before releasing it.

 

[TheSword]

Your "wacky" is someone else's "fantastical." Fantasy adventure in our hobby has grown beyond only dungeon crawling in a whitewashed faux-Medieval Europe and saving sacrificial damsels in distress. Our sense of fantasy has widened in scope. It has also evolved with the influence of streams like Critical Role.

I'm not sure if this is so much an issue of novelty, but, rather, the natural evolution of our hobby, particularly among the more mainstream markets.

If what you said was the case then these new concepts would bed-in and become the new norm. They aren’t. What we are seeing though isn’t a new norm. It’s the absence of norm, because we get one hit, then it’s on to the new concept.

If your argument is that an established and recognizable world building that resonates with a large number of people is being replaced with many one off themes then I think that is a great description of what Tyranny of Novelty means.

It’s fascinating that you would use a WOW meme which is in itself a recognizable and established fantasy setting. The example you gave of Critical Role, uses an established and recognizable fantasy setting.

I’m not sure what you mean by whitewashed and saving damsels? Carnivals, hellscapes, iceworlds, gladiatorial tournaments, and magic schools have nothing to do with race or gender as far as I can see. Please don’t paint this as a political thing. It’s apolitical.

 

[Aldarc]

If what you said was the case then these new concepts would bed-in and become the new norm. They aren’t. What we are seeing though isn’t a new norm. It’s the absence of norm, because we get one hit, then it’s on to the new concept.

I think that you are imagining me making a far more hardlined or extreme case than I am actually making with little shades of nuance. I am saying that the scope of adventure fantasy is becoming more varied and diversified, particularly in more mainstream/neo-traditional games. This is not an overnight process. Furthermore, you call this "wacky." Other people simply view this as part and parcel of "fantasy."

If your argument is that an established and recognizable world building that resonates with a large number of people is being replaced with many one off themes then I think that is a great description of what Tyranny of Novelty means.

(1) This is loaded language. (2) This is not my argument.

It’s fascinating that you would use a WOW meme which is in itself a recognizable and established fantasy setting. The example you gave of Critical Role, uses an established and recognizable fantasy setting.

I’m not sure what you mean by whitewashed and saving damsels? Carnivals, hellscapes, iceworlds, gladiatorial tournaments, and magic schools have nothing to do with race or gender as far as I can see. Please don’t paint this as a political thing. It’s apolitical.

"Carnivals, hellscapes, iceworlds, gladitorial tournaments, and magic schools" are also all things that you can find in World of Warcraft. Also, doesn't Critical Role season 2 start off in a carnival with several of the characters being performers and/or workers there?

But did you complain about magic schools in Mystara's Glantri? Or gladitorial tournaments in Dark Sun? Or hellscapes and iceworlds in Planescape? Or carnivals in Eberron? These things have definitely been a part of D&D adventuring for a LONG time already.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Nothing is really original, and writers and musicians who realize this know what's up. As someone who studied jazz arranging for big bands, there are only so many chord progressions. In fact most pop music is just the same 4 chords in a different key or order. Nothing is really original.

 

[pemerton]

Are carnivals that controversial? Necromancer Games had a carnival-themed 3E/d20 module back in 2002 - G2: What Evil Lurks - RPGnet d20 RPG Game Index

 

[TheSword]

I think that you are imagining me making a far more hardlined or extreme case than I am actually making with little shades of nuance. I am saying that the scope of adventure fantasy is becoming more varied and diversified, particularly in more mainstream/neo-traditional games. This is not an overnight process. Furthermore, you call this "wacky." Other people simply view this as part and parcel of "fantasy."


(1) This is loaded language. (2) This is not my argument.


"Carnivals, hellscapes, iceworlds, gladitorial tournaments, and magic schools" are also all things that you can find in World of Warcraft. Also, doesn't Critical Role season 2 start off in a carnival with several of the characters being performers and/or workers there?

But did you complain about magic schools in Mystara's Glantri? Or gladitorial tournaments in Dark Sun? Or hellscapes and iceworlds in Planescape? Or carnivals in Eberron? These things have definitely been a part of D&D adventuring for a LONG time already.

They have, and they are fine. Provided that’s not all that companies are releasing. No one minds a magic school encounter or a magic school adventure. Even a magic school campaign is fine. Provided WOC et al offer some more grounded stuff too. You seem to be equally misunderstanding my point that, this stuff is not bad per se. it’s the lack of grounded alternatives that is annoying and leads to the tyranny of novelty.

It’s worth noting that Cubicle 7 are capable of releasing interesting and engaging adventures for WFRP that are grounded and aren’t wacky. Many many adventures. The pages of Dungeon magazine were filled with engaging and interesting adventures that could be slotted into existing campaigns without destroying continuity. It is possible, the ideas are out there. They just aren’t being selected.

It’s interesting that you raise Planescape. Planescape needs the more recognizable setting of Sigil to tie together the hellscapes and ice worlds, otherwise it wouldn’t work. There is a reason that Sigil, with its factions and factories and shops became the core of the Planescape setting.

 

[TheSword]

Are carnivals that controversial? Necromancer Games had a carnival-themed 3E/d20 module back in 2002 - G2: What Evil Lurks - RPGnet d20 RPG Game Index

They’re aren’t no. Because necromancy games releases a wide range of products of which a good chunk can be added to a world without destroying continuity and style. So the odd carnival adventure is an addition and not the bread an butter of their releases.

 

[Aldarc]

They have, and they are fine. Provided that’s not all that companies are releasing. No one minds a magic school encounter or a magic school adventure. Even a magic school campaign is fine. Provided WOC et al offer some more grounded stuff too. You seem to be equally misunderstanding my point that, this stuff is not bad per se. it’s the lack of grounded alternatives that is annoying and leads to the tyranny of novelty.

How is there a lack of alternatives? Those "grounded" adventures were the vast bulk of the early release and still form the bulk of adventures released by either WotC or Paizo.

It’s worth noting that Cubicle 7 are capable of releasing interesting and engaging adventures for WFRP that are grounded and aren’t wacky. Many many adventures. The pages of Dungeon magazine were filled with engaging and interesting adventures that could be slotted into existing campaigns without destroying continuity. It is possible, the ideas are out there. They just aren’t being selected.

Good for Cubicle 7 then. It's worth noting, however, that D&D-brand fantasy is NOT Warhammer-brand fantasy.

It’s interesting that you raise Planescape. Planescape needs the more recognizable setting of Sigil to tie together the hellscapes and ice worlds, otherwise it wouldn’t work. There is a reason that Sigil, with its factions and factories and shops became the core of the Planescape setting.

I'm not sure if I would call "the City of Doors" more recognizable or grounded. It's a floating city shaped like a ring. It was intentionally made to be off-kilter from the norm. The difference is that you now register it as normal as primarily a result of time.

They’re aren’t no. Because necromancy games releases a wide range of products of which a good chunk can be added to a world without destroying continuity and style. So the odd carnival adventure is an addition and not the bread an butter of their releases.

Why do you keep referencing "continuity and style" as if these adventures were somehow destroying/ruining it for D&D?