D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[Garthanos]

You mean character ability has meaning? I'm not following your argument. You claim character ability is being reduced in favor of the d20, but your example clearly shows character ability having a large impact in 5e.

Clearly shows ability has Less impact because you do not outclass obstacles in 5e AND its a known intended effect.

 

[Garthanos]

Your character ability had little to do with it -- it came free with level.

Oh right level is now free and meaningless... sheesh.

Level is how I compare characters with themselves at lower level and general progress its is part of character competence.

 

[Garthanos]

It didnt occur to me to link ki to Constitution. That makes sense. Ki would also include intangible aspects of hit points and toughness. And could be focused to enhance physical strength and wondrous stunts, like running across water and bounding up alley walls. Probably, it can allow a Fighter to create a magic item. And so on.

A lot of ideas come forward if you look at actual legends and myths...

 

[Garthanos]

Huh? Trained in a skill in 4e is +5. Proficient is +2 to +6. I'd hardly call this a "Much broader range" at any level.

And if you mean above baseline proficiency 5e is another +2 to +6 with some abilities that let you use a skill as a bonus/minor action. 5e has a number of +5 powers, skill focus feats, and a few other +2s or +3s and some abilities that let you use a skill as a bonus/minor action. I'd have said the 4e spread was actually larger

My 4e rogue is likely +10 on locks at level one compared to the fighter and even just with the amount of dex advancement it gets higher and higher

 

[pemerton]

Here are five 4e PCs, at 30th level, spoiler-blocked because it's a fairly long table:

Spoiler

[TABLE=”width: 100%]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Derrik[/TD]

[TD]Jett[/TD]

[TD]Malstaph[/TD]

[TD]Ravian[/TD]

[TD]Tillen[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]AC[/TD]

[TD]45[/TD]

[TD]46[/TD]

[TD]43[/TD]

[TD]47[/TD]

[TD]47[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Fort[/TD]

[TD]41[/TD]

[TD]42[/TD]

[TD]33[/TD]

[TD]39[/TD]

[TD]42[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Ref[/TD]

[TD]39[/TD]

[TD]43[/TD]

[TD]39[/TD]

[TD]45[/TD]

[TD]36[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Will[/TD]

[TD]40[/TD]

[TD]48[/TD]

[TD]45[/TD]

[TD]44[/TD]

[TD]45[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]hp[/TD]

[TD]224[/TD]

[TD]171[/TD]

[TD]139[/TD]

[TD]173[/TD]

[TD]222[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Initiative[/TD]

[TD]+21[/TD]

[TD]+28[/TD]

[TD]+21[/TD]

[TD]+24[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Passive Insight[/TD]

[TD]29[/TD]

[TD]27 (29)[/TD]

[TD]44[/TD]

[TD]33[/TD]

[TD]37[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Passive Perception[/TD]

[TD]29 (32)[/TD]

[TD]27[/TD]

[TD]39[/TD]

[TD]42[/TD]

[TD]30[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]STR[/TD]

[TD]26 (+23)[/TD]

[TD]10 (+15)[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]14 (+17)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]CON[/TD]

[TD]20 (+20)[/TD]

[TD]14 (+17)[/TD]

[TD]13 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]16 (+18)[/TD]

[TD]18 (+19)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]DEX[/TD]

[TD]18 (+19)[/TD]

[TD]26 (+23)[/TD]

[TD]10 (+15)[/TD]

[TD]28 (+24)[/TD]

[TD]14 (+17)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]INT[/TD]

[TD]10 (+15)[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]24 (+22)[/TD]

[TD]10 (+15)[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]WIS[/TD]

[TD]19 (+19)[/TD]

[TD]14 (+17)[/TD]

[TD]28 (+24)[/TD]

[TD]26 (+23)[/TD]

[TD]20 (+20)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]CHA[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]28 (+24)[/TD]

[TD]12 (+16)[/TD]

[TD]15 (+17)[/TD]

[TD]28 (+24)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Athletics[/TD]

[TD]+28[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[TD]+18[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Endurance[/TD]

[TD]+35[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Acrobatics[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+28[/TD]

[TD]+14[/TD]

[TD]+33[/TD]

[TD]+13[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Stealth[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+30[/TD]

[TD]+14[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Thievery[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+14[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+13[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Arcana[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+21[/TD]

[TD]+43 (45)[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]History[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+43[/TD]

[TD]+15[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Religion[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+41 (43)[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[TD]+21[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Dungeoneering[/TD]

[TD]+21[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+35[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Heal[/TD]

[TD]+24[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+24 (26)[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Insight[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+17 (19)[/TD]

[TD]+34[/TD]

[TD]+23[/TD]

[TD]+27[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Nature[/TD]

[TD]+19[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+35 (37)[/TD]

[TD]+30[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Perception[/TD]

[TD]+19 (22)[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+29[/TD]

[TD]+32[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Bluff[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+29 (33)[/TD]

[TD]+18[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+26[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Diplomacy[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+35 (37)[/TD]

[TD]+29 (33)[/TD]

[TD]+22[/TD]

[TD]+35[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Intimidate[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+37 (41)[/TD]

[TD]+20[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+37[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Streetwise[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+24 (26)[/TD]

[TD]+16[/TD]

[TD]+17[/TD]

[TD]+24[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

There is a significant spread there in character abilities, that follows from proficiency and stat as the main considerations and feats, various other build features (race, theme, paragon path, epic destiny), and magic items having a lesser though still meaningful effect.

At 1st level feats and items aren't such a big consideration, but an untrained PC with a low stat will have -1 or 0 in a skill, while a trained character with a good stat and/or a race bonus can be +9 or better. So the gap opens up from about 10 between best and worst, to about 20.

At 1st level, the Easy/Medium/Hard DCs are 8/12/19, while at 30th level they are 24/32/42 (Rule Compendium p 126). So Easy DCs gradually become trivial for a PC oriented towards that skill (because the growth in difficulty corresponds to nothing but the +16 gained from a +15 level bonus and the +1 stat increase at 11th and 21st level, meaning that all growth above that is a net increase in success chance), and for a PC's best skill Medium and even Hard DCs still become gradually easier to attain.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I lot of people don't understand that the scaling DCs are there to stop the tendency for every mundane obstacle that would ideally be an equal challenge at any level (like slippery ice) being 'upgraded' to like Astral Ice or something as the PCs level to justify the DC. 4e is saying that narratively, ice is always going to be a pain to walk on.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not sure I follow you, here. 4e put everything on a treadmill -- character ability mattered very little, as the spread from proficient to not was much smaller than in 5e. Meanwhile, the DCs were fixed on level, keeping the needed rolls for things the same -- and based largely on the result of the d20 because the bonus was accounted for in the level treadmill.

5e introduced a much broader range of difference between proficient and not, but the DC range is also much smaller. Remember that guidance for DCs is to set them almost entirely between 10 and 20. This ends up, by the end, of making the results very sensitive to character ability. At the beginning, it doesn't really, because the spread is so small (2).

I don't agree with your core analysis of the math, lol. All editions are 'treadmills'. Lets just dispense any myth which tries to say different, or even any attempt to make it not so, as all are either myths, or doomed to fail. There's a sweet spot in terms of rate of success, and every edition of D&D aimed to stay within it, from OD&D through to 5e. As you level up, you encounter proportionately more difficult challenges which require higher base numbers to hit, and you get more bonuses which MUST logically produce an approximately counteracting improvement in success rate, such that the end result is you always 'hit' at between 25% and 75% of the time, with most rates clustering around the 55% to 65% range.

This is simply the logic of d20 level-based D&D. In both 4e and 5e ability bonus is significant (it is calculated the same in both games, and the distribution of bonuses is pretty similar, though PCs in 4e could increase a bit more). So, if anything ability score is just slightly less important in 5e, but not by much. OTOH since level bonus and level increase are less in 5e, and DCs are thus compressed into a somewhat smaller range, the random range of the actual results of the d20 is likely to be a larger proportion of the difference between hitting and missing. Aside from the huge bonuses that thieves get from their double proficiency bonuses, skills work out about the same in both games, but again 4e bonuses accumulate more in 30 levels, and apply much more of the time, so skill is more a factor in 4e vs 5e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Why would they be picking the same lock? When would this actually happen?

Here we agree completely. The point is, IF you imagined a high level rogue playing with a level 1 lock, out of nostalgia perhaps (?) then the DC would still be 15, presumably by 4e rules, there's no "scaling because you are higher level", there is only "you have no business even playing around with these challenges that are 10 levels beneath you." If the GM puts you in that situation, then he should just narrate how you glance at the lock and it falls apart, lol.

But this is the main argument that undermines the whole 5e bonus charade. Just do what is challenging NOW and don't worry about some sort of faux 'logic' to it. Same with skills you aren't focused on, yup, the 20th level 4e wizard is a great Athlete, by the numbers, but anyone who actually puts those numbers to the test measuring him against villagers is doing it wrong! lol.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I lot of people don't understand that the scaling DCs are there to stop the tendency for every mundane obstacle that would ideally be an equal challenge at any level (like slippery ice) being 'upgraded' to like Astral Ice or something as the PCs level to justify the DC. 4e is saying that narratively, ice is always going to be a pain to walk on.

Well, more like in 4e 'ordinary ice' will become nothing, no obstacle at all, to PCs of say 15th level (maybe a particularly inept PC might still technically be able to fail a hard level 1 DC). OTOH 'Elemental Ice' that exists in the EC on Mount ColdAsHeck is a higher level threat, and that's what you encounter. Bobby KlutzyWizard will definitely go skating on his butt on that one! If he gets to level 30 and runs into the Ice in Kostchky's layer of the Abyss, he better have some allies with good DEX bonuses!

I don't see a point to ordinary ice always posing a threat to certain PCs even when they are 20th level. I just narratively don't get why that situation would be a good one to construct. It has bad thematics at the very least.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't see a point to ordinary ice always posing a threat to certain PCs even when they are 20th level. I just narratively don't get why that situation would be a good one to construct. It has bad thematics at the very least.

Or a different example : Why would the mayor who intimidated your low level character intimidate your character who is becoming a demigod.... regardless of whether your demigod had the right Charisma emphasis or bonus.