D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

[Crimson Longinus]

If it doesn't have to be music, then why not just call it something else?

I think it is a neat and evocative name that fits the themes of the class. But sure, it could be called something else.

I guess they just have a different image of what's important about being a bard.

Which is? Bards are about music, and they're jacks of all trades. If they aren't that, they don't need to exist. If bard is just a primary arcane caster with vaguely defined fluff, how are they different form the sorcerer?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

"Jack" still implies mediocrity. See also, previous attempts to make a true Jack of all trades Bard.

Two separate issues.

Jack does not imply mediocrity, it implies competence. You seem to think that anything short of specialized mastery is mediocre, and that is simply false. General mechanics are more useful and more well regarded than specialists. General Practitioners are equals to specialist physicians. Lumberjacks are professionals in a trade skill.
The idea that “Jack” means “mediocre” rather than “common in the classist sense” is a misunderstanding based on a modern social refusal to acknowledge class structures. A Jack in this sense is more akin to someone who is a professional plumber, electrician, and carpenter, with full training and competence in each field, compared to a specialized engineer. One isn’t “better” than the other, they just do very different things.

To the other, wholly separate issue: The Jack of All Trades Bard has worked quite well several times, it’s just harder to design well than a simpler more specialized class. In 5e, the Rogue is also a decent generalist, because it has cheats for the action economy. What the Bard (or ideally the Ranger IMO) needs is similar action economy workarounds to allow it to do multiple jobs in a turn.

The other problem with some iterations of the Bard is the false idea that a Jack must be mediocre being translated into mechanics in a level based system, putting them at limited progression in several areas. This part of the issue would be worsened by making the class a half caster.

 

[jayoungr]

Which is? Bards are about music, and they're jacks of all trades.

Well, obviously it's going to vary from player to player. But in response to the bolded portion, no--I have seen several examples that were about performance, but not necessarily musical performance specifically. For example, there was a healer bard in one of my games who was basically a male geisha: a teashop owner focused on providing comfort, soothing, and entertainment to his customers and later to the adventuring party. At the opposite end of the spectrum we had a surly tiefling who didn't care to talk much, let alone make music, but who entertained the party with flashy displays of knife juggling.

If bard is just a primary arcane caster with vaguely defined fluff, how are they different form the sorcerer?

In mechanical terms--way bigger spell list. Can also do some divine magic.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, obviously it's going to vary from player to player. But in response to the bolded portion, no--I have seen several examples that were about performance, but not necessarily musical performance specifically. For example, there was a healer bard in one of my games who was basically a male geisha: a teashop owner focused on providing comfort, soothing, and entertainment to his customers and later to the adventuring party. At the opposite end of the spectrum we had a surly tiefling who didn't care to talk much, let alone make music, but who entertained the party with flashy displays of knife juggling.

Ok. It being about inspiring performance on general, rather than specifically music is a valid point.

 

[Faolyn]

Not being a master doesn't necessarily relegate one to base level mediocrity.

No, but it does suggest not being the best. And in D&D and other RPGs, it's common for the best one (i.e., the highest skill) to be the one who does the needed task.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No!
I come from ADnD and for the first 8 or 9 levels they progressed about as fast as wizards when you look at xp, not at level.
They were 2/3 casters officially and when everyone peogressed equally in 3.x they were nerfed heavily. Especially if you also considered theat they even lost one slot per spell level which they only gained back with high cha (unlike the wizard who kept their spell slots and got bonus spells on top).
Bards as full casters with magical secrets on top gave them the flavour back that I missed in 3e.
If they would cast spells with int and also had a spell(song) book, I would be even more happier.

In 5e they are not real full casters in my opinion actually. Full casters (sorc, wiz, some druids, some cleric) all gain abilities to either get more spells over the course of the day (spell points, arcane recovery, natural recovery) or have a very powerful spell like feature (channel divinity).

Bard usually lack such abilities or are more or less pure casters that only use the bard class as chassis.

I could however live with real 2/3 caster, which I think would be possible to add to 5e with no problem and give a bit more room for subclass features and inapirational abilities. But half caster is too harsh (look at what people write about the artificer, who coul as well become 2/3 caster and still be balanced).

 

[jayoungr]

No, but it does suggest not being the best. And in D&D and other RPGs, it's common for the best one (i.e., the highest skill) to be the one who does the needed task.

You can still be the best in your party as a bard, though. For instance, I've been in several games where the bard was the primary healer; a life cleric would have been better, but the party didn't have a life cleric. Or sometimes the bard is the best in the party at a particular skill, thanks to the "jack of all trades" feature, when no one else is trained in that skill.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You can still be the best in your party as a bard, though. For instance, I've been in several games where the bard was the primary healer; a life cleric would have been better, but the party didn't have a life cleric. Or sometimes the bard is the best in the party at a particular skill, thanks to the "jack of all trades" feature, when no one else is trained in that skill.

Furthermore, it is often useful if several characters are competent in one area. Even if there was a cleric, additional healing would still be helpful. If a rogue would be doing more damage than other characters no one would be saying that it is worthless for other characters to be able to do any damage at all. And of course in many situations it is useful if several characters are good at a skill, like in any group check situation.

 

[Aldarc]

No, but it does suggest not being the best. And in D&D and other RPGs, it's common for the best one (i.e., the highest skill) to be the one who does the needed task.

It's also common for the one with the highest skill to still fail due to a crummy d20 roll so others chip in to try their hand at whatever task needs done.

 

[Parmandur]

A Jack in this sense is more akin to someone who is a professional plumber, electrician, and carpenter, with full training and competence in each field, compared to a specialized engineer.

Wow, um, so where to start with this...

How many plumbers, electricians, and carpenters do you know or are related to? Because I have friends and family in all of those categories, and they are specialists. They might be able to do general tasks in other disciplines, but they know enough to know when they need to get another specialist for the job. The diversity and specialized nature of the trades is precisely why I'm skeptical of the idea of a "jack og all trades."

To the other, wholly separate issue: The Jack of All Trades Bard has worked quite well several times, it’s just harder to design well than a simpler more specialized class. In 5e, the Rogue is also a decent generalist, because it has cheats for the action economy. What the Bard (or ideally the Ranger IMO) needs is similar action economy workarounds to allow it to do multiple jobs in a turn.

The "Jack of All Trades" Bard has certainly existed in the past, "worked" is stronger language than I would apply to how it functioned. The 5E Bard has the virtue of feeling like a Jack of All Trades while actually being a well focused support caster: they do this partly by stealing from the Subclass power budget to provide flavorful abilities in the core Class.