D&D 5E Wild Speculation: Athas, the World Without Dragons

[MonsterEnvy]

And one Wizard Spell shuts off -all- magic. The GODS cannot cast magic into an Antimagic Zone. The freaking GODS. Shuts down Vecna -instantly-. Correlon? No magic for you! Mystra? Nuh huh, even though MAGIC IS HERS IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS...

She can't cast a spell inside the Antimagic Zone 'cause the Weave breaks.

It's -so- bad... It's -so- limiting from a narrative perspective.

It sounds more like you got an issue with Anti-magic field then anything else.

 

[Steampunkette]

It sounds more like you got an issue with Anti-magic field then anything else.

I don't think I've been even -remotely- unclear that I despise the idea that all magic comes from a single source, dragons exist like demons and angels "seeded" across the entire multiverse, and that the planes exist in a specific, explicit, and exclusive manner across that multiverse.

Please do not try and minimize what I'm saying here. Please do not try decide what I "Really" have a problem with. You don't get to.

It's narratively homogenous and limiting. And as a writer, amateur as I am... I dislike that and think it's a bad idea.

 

[squibbles]

[...] Athas exists within the material plane, so in this canon it must be a seedling of the First World, right? But apart from the Sorcerer Kings, there are no true dragons there. No echoes of the original inhabitants of the First World, which are deeply metaphysically connected to the substance of the material plane itself. Could it be that, in this new canon, this is the reason Athas is so messed up? That without these echoes connecting Athas to the First World, it has become unmoored from the rest of the cosmos, leading the gods to be unreachable, and arcane magic (which also has a connection to dragons) to damage the world, depleting it of what little of its quintessential material substance remains in the absence of dragons?

To be clear, I don’t especially like this idea. I rather hope it’s just the tinfoil making total nonsense seem plausible. But, it’s a direction I could see them taking for a Dark Sun re-imagining.

Even if they do make that the 5e background fluff of Dark Sun--which I agree is not terribly appealing--the setup is flexible enough that the setting themes could still largely work.

In Dark Sun, it isn't really important WHY arcane magic defiles, just that it does. The defiling downside of Dark Sun's arcane magic can be a consequence of decisions made by a specific lore figure (the prism pentad backstory), a result of Athas's being damaged relative to the baseline D&D cosmology (the first world retcon you have described), or mostly unexplained (the setting's original premise). At bottom, what matters is the incentives that defiling creates in wizards--defilers get selfish short term payoffs from destroying a shared common resource--so much so that they perpetrate an existential global tragedy of the commons. Even if Athas started out as a dragon-less, god-less, isolated dimension--its defilers can still be jerk-asses who desiccated the world's biosphere, burned out the sun, and created a hobbesian hellscape.

Also, the "echoes of the original inhabitants of the First World, which are deeply metaphysically connected to the substance of the material plane itself" in this setup ARE high level defilers like the sorcerer kings. Anyone who goes far enough into defiling becomes a dragon (as @TheSword mentioned in respect to Black Sands, this is not limited to sorcerer kings). That setup has weird metaphysical implications. I'm not sure why, but to me it suggests a gnosticism and body-horror vibe--which I don't hate. And there are interesting directions in which that could be taken.

But, ultimately, retconning the Dark Sun setting to have a first world backstory could very easily go wrong and AT BEST would make the setting interestingly different, not qualitatively better. So, hopefully, it doesn't happen.

In my ideal version of the setting, no one relevant to PCs will ever know the answers to the setting's cosmological questions.

 

[Retreater]

We won't be getting the Dark Sun I remember (and I think that's fine): Modern sensibilities would prevent the themes; 5e's mechanics can't duplicate the feel (imagine a "character tree" concept in today's story-driven landscape); 5e psionics as presented thus far don't fit the setting.
I think the best thing to do for those wanting Dark Sun in 5e is to get the original boxed set (or PDFs) and just run it with the maps, NPCs, etc. Same thing with Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, etc.

 

[Charlaquin]

We won't be getting the Dark Sun I remember (and I think that's fine): Modern sensibilities would prevent the themes;

This is an absurd statement. Dark Sun’s themes are pro-environmentalist, anti-fascist, anti-imperialist, and anti-racist. They could not be better aligned with “modern sensibilities.”

 

[squibbles]

We won't be getting the Dark Sun I remember (and I think that's fine): Modern sensibilities would prevent the themes; 5e's mechanics can't duplicate the feel (imagine a "character tree" concept in today's story-driven landscape); 5e psionics as presented thus far don't fit the setting.
I think the best thing to do for those wanting Dark Sun in 5e is to get the original boxed set (or PDFs) and just run it with the maps, NPCs, etc. Same thing with Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, etc.

I can't really disagree with your subjective experience of playing Dark Sun, and I agree with you that the original boxed set is the best way the setting has ever been presented.

However, I absolutely want to see 5e try to duplicate the feel. 5e so far under-serves low fantasy, sword and sorcery, and sword and planet. Perhaps--in the same way that WotC is serving a new noncombat style of play in Wild Beyond the Witchlight--they could give those S&S styles and themes a try in a Dark Sun book. The ultimate outcome might not suit you (or me), but maybe it would--and the original version of Dark Sun will be around whether the setting is revisited or not.

This is an absurd statement. Dark Sun’s themes are pro-environmentalist, anti-fascist, anti-imperialist, and anti-racist. They could not be better aligned with “modern sensibilities.”

Dark Sun is probably the most pro-environmentalist secondary world that has ever been conceived (if anyone can think a better one I'd love to be corrected here), and it's anti-racist in that it critically depicts prejudice and has genocide in its deep backstory. But the other themes you listed strike me as a bit curious.

Dark Sun is anti-authoritarian, I think, with all its petty despots and oppressive social structures.

But is it anti-fascist? The sorcerer kings exercise state power with no ideology--or with a religious one--and all their societies are very traditional. The pervasive cruelty feels Biblical Egyptian or Assyrian, not modern. I realize there are many definitions of fascism, and that Dark Sun's prevailing societies might fit some of them, but this seems incidental to me. What makes it strike you that way?

And is it anti-imperialist? There aren't any empires in Dark Sun, just city states, and they don't control large or diverse territories like, say, the Athenian empire did. There aren't client kings that carry out the sorcerer kings' wishes or mercantilist trade dependencies of raw goods for finished goods. It's just old-school stationary bandits collecting taxes with the help of an oppressive professional bureaucracy. Even the genocidal wars of the deep backstory come across more as movements than as imperial conquests, like decentralized 15th century religious strife or 19th century nationalist uprisings. Where does the anti-imperialism come in?

...Just a bit of friendly pushback--I agree with your point in general.

 

[AtomicPope]

You've got Wizards, who learn how to manipulate the weave directly.
Psionicists, who realize there is no spoon and thus access the weave directly.
Sorcerers who are made of the weave.
Clerics who are apparently too ignorant to actually harness magic, themselves, but fortunately they can beg -really- well and someone else does on their behalf.
Warlocks didn't wanna study or beg so they made a trade for magic.
And Druids. Honestly I've got no idea how they're supposed to be interacting with the weave. Naturally, I suppose.

And one Wizard Spell shuts off -all- magic. The GODS cannot cast magic into an Antimagic Zone. The freaking GODS. Shuts down Vecna -instantly-. Correlon? No magic for you! Mystra? Nuh huh, even though MAGIC IS HERS IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS...

She can't cast a spell inside the Antimagic Zone 'cause the Weave breaks.

It's -so- bad... It's -so- limiting from a narrative perspective.

Everything you described works really well in novels, but not in RPGs and especially not in heroic RPGs. Those limiting factors are great for metaplots that drive a novel, or series of novels, but they limite all RPG tables to the same metaplot unless the GMs consciously throw out the core components of the setting and craft their own. And that's a bad way to interact with a campaign setting as it takes time and creativity away from other things.

 

[Steampunkette]

But is it anti-fascist? The sorcerer kings exercise state power with no ideology--or with a religious one--and all their societies are very traditional. The pervasive cruelty feels Biblical Egyptian or Assyrian, not modern. I realize there are many definitions of fascism, and that Dark Sun's prevailing societies might fit some of them, but this seems incidental to me. What makes it strike you that way?

The whole destruction of the world came from a massive "Ethnic Cleansing" involving literally everyone that wasn't a human or a halfling.

All the Sorcerer-Kings were/are motivated by fascistic desires and structures. In large part through nationalistic fervor and the group-worship of a cult-leader in the form of the city-state's Sorcerer King.

Except Raam... Where Abalach Re presents herself not as the godly power, -herself-, but as the high priest of a made up religion in which only she can interpret the will of Badna. No one believes her, but everyone gives lip-service to Badna to avoid her killing them for being heretics.

And is it anti-imperialist? There aren't any empires in Dark Sun, just city states, and they don't control large or diverse territories like, say, the Athenian empire did. There aren't client kings that carry out the sorcerer kings' wishes or mercantilist trade dependencies of raw goods for finished goods. It's just old-school stationary bandits collecting taxes with the help of an oppressive professional bureaucracy. Even the genocidal wars of the deep backstory come across more as movements than as imperial conquests, like decentralized 15th century religious strife or 19th century nationalist uprisings. Where does the anti-imperialism come in?

Tectuktitlay of Draj wants to conquer the entire Tablelands. He's only held in check by Hamanu the Lion of Urik.

Each of the Sorcerer-Kings (Outside of Oronis of Kurn) seeks to attain Dragonhood and take over what remains of the world after their rampage. Only Borys was willing to take up the role of guarding Rajaat with the stipulation that the other City-States bring snackrifices to Ur-Draxa on his behalf.

In fact, when Dregoth was close to achieving his draconic rising, the other sorcerer-kings, lead by Abalach-Re, slaughtered him mid-transformation and caused him to become Athas' first and only "Dracolich" because they wanted the detente to continue and felt he was too powerful in the wake of Borys' change.

Most of the adventure paths have you working against the Sorcerer-Kings because anti-authority to some degree... but you're also always stopping them from expanding their power and influence, except at the Black Spine mountains, where you're -actually- trying to stop Gith from absolutely wrecking Nibenay and everyone else in a planet-wide takeover with superior weapons from another dimension.

Which is still pretty anti-imperialistic.

 

[Retreater]

This is an absurd statement. Dark Sun’s themes are pro-environmentalist, anti-fascist, anti-imperialist, and anti-racist. They could not be better aligned with “modern sensibilities.”

I agree with your assessment of the themes.
I just don't think a major corporation would publish it in today's world.
We've seen companies like Pinnacle back away from the Confederacy in Deadlands.
It's different to present a world where a few groups uphold these awful practices. It's quite different when it's the standard, core themes of the setting. And your characters can't do anything about it.

 

[Steampunkette]

I agree with your assessment of the themes.
I just don't think a major corporation would publish it in today's world.
We've seen companies like Pinnacle back away from the Confederacy in Deadlands.
It's different to present a world where a few groups uphold these awful practices. It's quite different when it's the standard, core themes of the setting. And your characters can't do anything about it.

Yeah, they can.

Kalak dying proves that you can kill them. And even if you couldn't kill them, you can -fight- them. Fight their aims.

Yeah, Deadlands backed away from the Confederacy... because in Deadlands they were a -heroic- option rather than being bad guys. The bad guys can be -horrible- so long as they're clearly horrible and the heroes oppose them.