D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

[Lanefan]

That the Orc fails to dodge is something outside my immediate character. Yet, by rolling an attack, I can make it true in the fiction that the Orc failed to dodge.

Remembering that there are Dwarven forges is something that is inside my immediate character. (It's in my head.)

You're either ignoring or unaware of something that I see as a fundamental difference between these two things.

The Orc is already present in the fiction; it's an established element with which your character is interacting. That said interaction happens to be combat doesn't matter, it could just as easily be a conversation over lunch or a simple wave as you pass each other by; what's relevant is that it is occurring at all.

The dawrven forge is an attempt to establish an entirely new element that's not already present in the fiction, in hopes of being able to interact with that element at a later time.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That the Orc fails to dodge is something outside my immediate character. Yet, by rolling an attack, I can make it true in the fiction that the Orc failed to dodge.

Remembering that there are Dwarven forges is something that is inside my immediate character. (It's in my head.)

So the criteria you are suggesting don't appear to carve the terrain the way that you want to.

EDIT: Ninja'd by @Ovinomancer in post 1910,

Swinging a sword at orc might cause an orc being hit. (This is not certain, so we roll the dice, but that really isn't important here.)

Remembering something doesn't cause the thing being remembered to exist. Reverse might be true, but that's not what's happening.

the causal process is completely different. I don't care what this difference is called, it nevertheless exist and most people don't seem to have trouble grasping this.

 

[soviet]

Yeah, this one's kind of like a bench-clearing brawl where everyone's pushing and shoving but all for different reasons.

In part because, maybe naively, I assume I'm not alone in my views; and if someone doesn't put those views forward then nobody will.

Heh, it's a giant brawl and we're trying to resolve it through TotM

But OK, let's agree that there are other people who share your dislike of this playstyle. Let's even say for the sake of argument that there are a great many of them. Again I ask you: so what?

 

[Cadence]

@Cadence and @Crimson Longinus asserted that the effect of a Spout Lore-type move is "quantum collapse". They don't believe that to be the case when the GM performs such authoring prompted by players but under no stronger constraints than being prompted. My point is that introducing stronger constraints (eg make it interesting and relevantly useful) doesn't change the authorship into "quantum collapse".

As noted previously, some folks DMing a game with "Spout Lore"* would be much more likely to have the "interesting and relevantly useful" success not necessarily be a forge, while others would also make the success almost certainly be the forge.

The former doesn't particularly feel like a Super Strong Prior/Directed Quantum Collapse spell to me and I can see running a game with an effect like that. The later does feel like the equivalent of a Quantum Collapse spell to me and I would have problems related to what @Lanefan notes in post 1932. I think in this later case (of almost certainly getting the forge on a success), that I would have trouble getting into character the way I like because I would stop trying to think about what my character would be doing or trying to look for and start thinking of it as a Directed Quantum Collapse spell instead.

* I keeping wanting to call it "Sprout Lore"

 

[Maxperson]

* I keeping wanting to call it "Sprout Lore"

The some seem to view it, "Sprout Horns" would also be appropriate.

 

[Cadence]

That the Orc fails to dodge is something outside my immediate character. Yet, by rolling an attack, I can make it true in the fiction that the Orc failed to dodge.

Or - The character attempts to hit the orc by outguessing their dodge/getting through their armor. The orc's dodge/armor is represented by a single number in this system (other systems would have the DM roll giving a variable level of dodge/soak). If the player rolls higher than the orc's dodge/armor score, then the character was skillful/strong enough to out do the dodge/soak (whether it was the player rolling, a contested roll, or a fixed attack with defender rolling - the rolls are at the player/DM level, not character action level).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

* I keeping wanting to call it "Sprout Lore"

You should have seen by the look in my eyes, D&D
There was somethin' missin'
You should have known by the tone of my comments, maybe
But they didn't listen
I wanted to kill things dead, but in story now the monsters never bled
Instead you just waited for me, with your old school division of authority

And though I know all about those theories
Still I don't remember
'Cause it was us
D&D, we played at the beginning, and we're still together
And I meant
Every word I said
When I said that I loved you I meant that I was brain damaged forever

And I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

And I meant
Every dice I rolled
When I rolled that d20 that meant that I was going to play you forever

And I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

D&D, I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

 

[Cadence]

You should have seen by the look in my eyes, D&D
There was somethin' missin'
You should have known by the tone of my comments, maybe
But they didn't listen
I wanted to kill things dead, but in story now the monsters never bled
Instead you just waited for me, with your old school division of authority

And though I know all about those theories
Still I don't remember
'Cause it was us
D&D, we played at the beginning, and we're still together
And I meant
Every word I said
When I said that I loved you I meant that I was brain damaged forever

And I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

And I meant
Every dice I rolled
When I rolled that d20 that meant that I was going to play you forever

And I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

D&D, I'm gonna keep on playin' you
'Cause it's the only thing I want to do
I don't want to sleep, I just want to keep on playin' you

By d20 Speedwagon?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

By d20 Speedwagon?

What, you wanted Journey?

 

[Cadence]

What, you wanted Journey?

Their greatest hits are magical and easy to memorize...