D&D 5E Living vs dead vs undead

[Li Shenron]

Are there any particular spells or items you have in mind which specify one effect for living targets and another for dead ones?

Not exactly but I was just checking True Resurrection. Say you meet the ghost of a person who died more than 200 years ago, the ghost "dies" (drops to 0hp) in battle. Can you true-resurrect the original person because the ghost "died" a short time ago, or not because the original person really died more than 200 years ago?

 

[Voadam]

5e PH Page 198 for reference.

MONSTERS AND DEATH
Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
KNOCKING A CREATURE OUT
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

Not exactly but I was just checking True Resurrection. Say you meet the ghost of a person who died more than 200 years ago, the ghost "dies" (drops to 0hp) in battle. Can you true-resurrect the original person because the ghost "died" a short time ago, or not because the original person really died more than 200 years ago?

Nope. Though that spell checks many of the boxes that would allow it, the "more than 200 years" condition kicks in.

 

[LordEntrails]

What about reincarnation? The target there is a dead humanoid. So ghosts (incorporeal creatures) and undead don't apply? (excluding the dead on Tuesday/Wednesday possibilities)

 

[LordEntrails]

Nope. Though that spell checks many of the boxes that would allow it, the "more than 200 years" condition kicks in.

Yea.. but...
Isn't that 200 year rule have something to do with the spirit or soul no longer being recoverable? And isn't a ghost the spirit, so if the spirit is available, why not?

 

[Voadam]

Not exactly but I was just checking True Resurrection. Say you meet the ghost of a person who died more than 200 years ago, the ghost "dies" (drops to 0hp) in battle. Can you true-resurrect the original person because the ghost "died" a short time ago, or not because the original person really died more than 200 years ago?

True resurrection has some odd wording. If you kill an undead creature you can resurrect it within 200 years of the time it died, and it comes back restored to its non-undead form.

I think the intent would be for the original creature death, but the wording seems to me to be RAW the undead creature death bringing back the undead creature but with the twist of the non-undead form.

TRUE RESURRECTION
9th-level necromancy
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth at least 25,000 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: Instantaneous
You touch a creature that has been dead for no longer than 200 years and that died for any reason except old age. If the creature's soul is free and willing, the creature is restored to life with all its hit points. This spell closes all wounds, neutralizes any poison, cures all diseases, and lifts any curses affecting the creature when it died. The spell replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs. If the creature was undead, it is restored to its non-undead form.
The spell can even provide a new body if the original no longer exists, in which case you must speak the creature's name. The creature then appears in an unoccupied space you choose within 10 feet of you.

It is an oddity in a narrative sense that undeath would work as a preservative for purposes of True Resurrection though.

This means Merlin should secretly animate King Arthur's fallen body as a zombie in order for Arthur to be true resurrected in the far future to meet England's greatest need.

 

[Maxperson]

Does 5e ruleset define living, dead and undead as mutually exclusive?

The 5e rules use the natural language philosophy. How the words are used naturally holds sway, so if you went to a stranger on the street and asked this question, what would the answer be? They'd say that you cannot be living and dead at the same time, and if they knew about undead, they'd say that undead was neither living, nor dead. That means that they are all mutually exclusive by how 5e works.

You could of course make it different for your game.

This is a bit of theoretical curiosity since I don't have any trouble at hand to manage, but I am sure it can have some practical consequences.

Narratively speaking, it's normally not a problem to say that an undead is neither living nor dead. But as soon as you have an ability, spell, magic item or whatever, which affects a 'living' creature or a 'dead' creature differently, without specifying how it works on undead, you might need a consistent rule to apply.

You'd have to make the call as DM. Rulings over rules.

Additionally, when an undead creature is 'killed' in combat, does it become 'dead'? Does it remain 'undead'? Both?

I've been playing D&D since 1983 and I've never seen or heard of anyone who didn't treat an undead as dead after it was "killed."

 

[Redwizard007]

The 5e rules use the natural language philosophy. How the words are used naturally holds sway, so if you went to a stranger on the street and asked this question, what would the answer be? They'd say that you cannot be living and dead at the same time, and if they knew about undead, they'd say that undead was neither living, nor dead. That means that they are all mutually exclusive by how 5e works.

You could of course make it different for your game.

You'd have to make the call as DM. Rulings over rules.

I've been playing D&D since 1983 and I've never seen or heard of anyone who didn't treat an undead as dead after it was "killed."

I think that most people would say that undead is dead. Dead = not alive.

Undead is just dead but animated by ________. A zombie's time of death was when it stopped being a person. Same for every other form of undead. No reason to think undeath resets the clock, so to speak, for spells returning life to a target.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I also would say that that a zombie is, in natural language an animated cadaver. Si actually a dead. Zombie films speaks about the dead rising and eating brains, not the "not quite dead".

Natural language is a language everyone thinks he speaks, despite being unable to convey his ideas, while having the illusion of doing do.

 

[Lyxen]

I've been playing D&D since 1983 and I've never seen or heard of anyone who didn't treat an undead as dead after it was "killed."

While I think I have about the same experience (I still think that there have been a number of cases where it was borderline), there is one thing linked to this that I also have seen consistently, that once someone has become an undead and then died as an undead, he could not become undead again (at least not without going through a "living" phase again). In a sense, he was "deader than dead", although he could be be brought back to life (and then possibly raised as an undead if killed again).

This held true (with possibly variations) for intelligent undead as well as for mindless ones like zombies and skeletons. However, the restriction did of course not hold when using higher/different magic such as wishes/miracles, which could bring a dead undead back to undeath.

What is fascinating is the number of possibilities here if you want to be creative, and I love putting this kind of situation in the hands of the players at our tables, they always come up with innovative ways to make the situation even more complex and the intrigues even more enjoyable.