D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Mind of tempest]

controversial take what if everything is just evil all along?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If a witch had mind controlled Hitler and the rest of the Nazi leadership in 1942 and made them order the Wehrmacht to surrender immediately, would that have been an evil act?

So, taking the most extreme possible utilitarian argument to try to prove your point is a weak argument. Firstly it assumes that utilitarianism is correct. Secondly, the most extreme possible ender’s game level hypothetical is meaningless even if we assume utilitarianism.

Take prison, for example.

An evil institution that is, in some places, a form of modern slavery.

Arguably, "charm" spells (Friends, Charm Person, et al) are not "mind control" so much as mind/emotion/perception "influencing." You can not force them to harm themselves or do things that are intrinsically against their nature. The target knows they were ensorcelled when the spell wears off. It's a...mental "nudge."

Right. It’s manipulation, which is still bad, but obviously distinct from mind control. The later question that tries to equate inspiration to mental influencing made me chuckle, but wasn’t compelling as an argument.

Right out the gate, it's not the enchanters or the necromancers you need to watch and worry about being evil. It's those shifty pompous clerics.

Yeah I don’t even think necromancy should be labeled evil, but it’s both enchanters and priests that need heavy handed oversight, at the bare minimum.

This is a poor example, and misses the mark. The case in point refers to intervening in an individual's selfhood, and compromising the integrity of their consciousness.

Better - but still inadequate examples - might include lobotomizing psychiatric patients, unsanctioned anaesthesia, spiking someone with LSD without their consent, or administering large doses of lithium sulfate to Alzheimer's sufferers in order to pacify them. How do you feel about those?

Exactly. Physical force and extortion don’t rob a person of their ability to object. They don’t eliminate the possibility of nonviolent resistance. Cops armed with Command and Suggestion is one of the most terrifying things I can imagine. Much scarier than them having a gun, which is already scary.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You honestly think that because you have the illusion of choice, rather than literally no choice, that makes it somehow better? Suffice it to say that I think you couldn't be more wrong.

The ability to object is present in one case and absent in another. Prison is incredibly dehumanizing itself, but guards with command and suggestion would be even worse.

 

[payn]

controversial take what if everything is just evil all along?

A fatalist take, nice!

 

[Mind of tempest]

A fatalist take, nice!

I have debated using it for a setting idea once as once everyone is evil it is super easy to justify most of what players want to do.

 

[payn]

I have debated using it for a setting idea once as once everyone is evil it is super easy to justify most of what players want to do.

yeah, I get that. I typically dont worry about these things until they become patterns and/or issues. Then, the discussions start and sessions can turn into philosophy 101, which is fine by me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The ability to object is present in one case and absent in another. Prison is incredibly dehumanizing itself, but guards with command and suggestion would be even worse.

It might be worse, but primarily because I don't think prison guards could be trusted not to abuse such power.

Take a different example. A violent criminal has a gun to a child's head. There is no question in anyone's mind that the criminal will shoot the child unless stopped. You have only two guaranteed ways to stop him. You have a sniper who never misses a head shot. And you have a telepath whose niche superpowers allow them to force violent criminals to surrender to the authorities peacefully. Or you can choose a third option, but the child's survival is not guaranteed. Which do you choose?

Personally, I think using the telepath is the obvious moral choice.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

It can be used for good and evil, like most spells, and the consequences for evil are pretty dire, like a lot of spells as well. A 9th level Mass Suggestion being used daily can control hundreds of people, but a Meteor Swarm in a packed crowd can kill thousands easily. Likewise, a Mass Suggestion can stop the cultists trying to summon Tiamat, and a Meteor Swarm can nuke said cultists if they all make the previous save.

 

[payn]

It might be worse, but primarily because I don't think prison guards could be trusted not to abuse such power.

Take a different example. A violent criminal has a gun to a child's head. There is no question in anyone's mind that the criminal will shoot the child unless stopped. You have only two guaranteed ways to stop him. You have a sniper who never misses a head shot. And you have a telepath whose niche superpowers allow them to force violent criminals to surrender to the authorities peacefully. Or you can choose a third option, but the child's survival is not guaranteed. Which do you choose?

Personally, I think using the telepath is the obvious moral choice.

Of course you think that, the telepath made you think so.

 

[Voadam]

A lot of D&D mind control is just control of the body. Hold Person and Dominate Person and Magic Jar come to mind where you attack them mentally to take control of their body. Their minds are still their own but they lose control of their body. Telekinesis can sometimes do the same effects. Or grappling or chains or paralytic drugs for the hold person.

Charms in D&D are generally manipulations, they make you feel or think differently. Drugs would be an analogous type of situation though some charms can make you feel much more specific things. Propaganda and advertising have similar goals.

Most D&D mind control does not specify that you do not remember afterwards. It might not always be obvious that there was an outside influence, but it is not like in Harry Potter. Some spells also have specifically called out that for those specific spells that the victim will be aware afterwards that there was an outside force.