(+) Gaming in historical settings and dealing with values of the era

[S'mon]

I remember liking the Captain America film but thinking at the time that the MCU clearly was not very close to the real world, even in 1941. It certainly looked like MCU 1940s USA had integrated military units. It was clearly an idealised comic book version of real world USA.

 

[pemerton]

I remember liking the Captain America film but thinking at the time that the MCU clearly was not very close to the real world, even in 1941. It certainly looked like MCU 1940s USA had integrated military units. It was clearly an idealised comic book version of real world USA.

Marvel/Disney is selling fantasy, not history.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

Marvel/Disney is selling fantasy, not history.

Except Star Wars of course! I know it was a long time ago but it really happened, didn't it..... I mean it did happen, right?...... back me up on this guys........... guys?.........GUYS?!

 

[dragoner]

It is all just fantasy, and no scorecard; history is just a theme, and looked at through a lens of who is saying what, trying to import their own meaning to it.

 

[el-remmen]

Marvel/Disney is selling fantasy, not history.

And I think selling a fantasy version of a historical period that erases its context while also wanting to claim its more heroic values is dangerous. I have similar feelings about how they swapped out Nazis for Hydra ("They are so bad even Nazis hate them!") as to have plausible deniability through disassociating Hydra merchandise they want to sell from its fascist roots. I feel some kind of way about Star Wars fans who are really into the Empire.

 

[Argyle King]

I find it interesting that so many people look back at history and automatically assume they would be the "hero" in those situations.

I mean, yeah... most people do want to see themselves as good. But I'm not sure that the actual reality is that most of us would be when placed in situations which we now have the luxury of looking back upon from the distance of time.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

And I think selling a fantasy version of a historical period that erases its context while also wanting to claim its more heroic values is dangerous. I have similar feelings about how they swapped out Nazis for Hydra ("They are so bad even Nazis hate them!") as to have plausible deniability through disassociating Hydra merchandise they want to sell from its fascist roots. I feel some kind of way about Star Wars fans who are really into the Empire.

While I'm not against sanitized versions of history for the purpose of fun and frolicks in; to let you just enjoy playing a game with the fun bits. I do agree with you it can whitewash things that shouldn't be whitewashed.
It's a bit like when I'm checking movie ratings for my 10 year old and all the ones with blood in have a higher rating that he's not supposed to see and those that have no blood and suffering are supposed to be fine for him to watch.
But I don't think having his first lesson of (cinematic) violence being it's all clean and fun with no messy consequences is really the right lesson.
Sometimes you need to learn things are painful and bad.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

And I think selling a fantasy version of a historical period that erases its context while also wanting to claim its more heroic values is dangerous. I have similar feelings about how they swapped out Nazis for Hydra ("They are so bad even Nazis hate them!") as to have plausible deniability through disassociating Hydra merchandise they want to sell from its fascist roots. I feel some kind of way about Star Wars fans who are really into the Empire.

Actually I just remembered a (possibly) more pertinent example.
Sparta was a superstitious, slave state run by brutal racial supremacists but because they came up with a few good quips and someone made them look cool in a movie we now have groups of guys on stag dos dressing up as Spartans on pub crawls.
It would be like in the future people going for a night out in full SS regalia saying "well it was a long time ago and they did know how to design a cool trenchcoat!"

 

[Argyle King]

Actually I just remembered a (possibly) more pertinent example.
Sparta was a superstitious, slave state run by brutal racial supremacists but because they came up with a few good quips and someone made them look cool in a movie we now have groups of guys on stag dos dressing up as Spartans on pub crawls.
It would be like in the future people going for a night out in full SS regalia saying "well it was a long time ago and they did know how to design a cool trenchcoat!"

Arguably, we kinda do that already.

More than a few companies which are seen as high-fashion today had deep ties with Nazi Germany.

Similarly, Subaru wasn't making compact cars for soccer moms at the time.

 

[MGibster]

While I sgree it won't come from RPGs but is instead a prerequisite to, I also feel the same difficulties would rise when doing fantasy gaming. I doubt a Waterdeep cleric would be "closer" than an Edo samurai in his worldview.

D&D has always struck me as having very modern liberal values including free speech, freedom of religion, and a high degree of individuality. i.e. The values many Americans say they have directly translates into playing good characters in most D&D settings.

For example, one of my biggest criticisms of Captain America: The First Avenger which spends at least half the movie in a WW2 army setting (before transforming into a kind of retro sci-fi thing) without once mentioning that the US Army was segregated at the time! Later, when they rescue captives, Cap puts his Howling Commandos together and Gabe Jones who is black is part of the team, no one says anything and I find that erasure kinda offensive.

The closest example I can think of is one scene where someone questions the Japanese-American's presence. I think they ask him where he's from (as if he didn't belong with them) and he answers that he's from somewhere in California. But, yeah, I was a bit disappointed that we didn't stick with the Nazis as the bad guys and it appeared as though the US Army was not segregated in this time line.

When I run a game in such a setting, I also remind players that the "of their time" claim about old racists or sexists or whatever is a fallacious excuse, since plenty of people in those times knew those things were wrong - including the very people who were the targets of those policies and attitudes - even if the common standard attitude is gross to us now. So not only should you not feel the need to be a bigot to be "accurate," but you should explicitly not be and can still be accurate.

Oh, yeah. Even in the 19th century here in the United States, we had some "crazy" religious people who were not only against slavery but actually believed all men were equal before God. And in my experience, most players have no desire to actually play characters who are strongly bigoted. They're not going to play characters who complain about black children going to the same school as their children or moving into the neighborhood.

Sparta was a superstitious, slave state run by brutal racial supremacists but because they came up with a few good quips and someone made them look cool in a movie we now have groups of guys on stag dos dressing up as Spartans on pub crawls.
It would be like in the future people going for a night out in full SS regalia saying "well it was a long time ago and they did know how to design a cool trenchcoat!"

That's probably because none of us identify as Helots. Let's face it, there are some fairly monstrous groups/people who get off lightly because so much time has passed that a lot of us just don't care. Look at how much pirates are romanticized these days despite largely being made up of murderers, rapist, and thieves.