D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[abirdcall]

Leaving aside for a moment the case of whether certain charms are evil I'd like to talk about the Enchanter Wizard.

Is pursuing Enchantment as a school specialty evil?

This isn't the Wizard knowing a charm just in case they need to use it. This is the Wizard pursuing mind control as a specialty.

Should Enchanters be seen like Necromancers? Not all Necromancy spells are evil but I'm not going to believe a Necromancer when they say they're not in it for animating corpses.

At least other schools have benign purposes. Transmutation isn't inherently evil or harmful. If you're an enchanter though your whole thing is to go around enchanting people.

Most enchantment and necromancy spells are harmful. I haven't met a Necromancer who only casts Gentle Repose.

I think I'm fine with saying Charms can be a grey area and can be themed and presented in such a way that protagonists are not evil for doing them.

Enchanters though? That seems like an evil profession to pursue.

 

[abirdcall]

Rape describes a specific form of violation that occurs disturbingly often in the real world. It's probably best not to appropriate that language to describe a distinct, fictional form of assault (both out of respect to survivors and in the interest of allowing a constructive dialogue).

Agreed.

Can we have a moratorium on it?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yeah I really hope I read their post wrong...

yes I was being sarcastic... I am on the side of charm spell is mind rape.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm going to regret this...but...

How?

Okay, I am all about the Jedi Slander.

Jedi take children brain wash them into believing in there religion (okay there god/the force may be real but still), then teach them to think half of the normal emotional responses are evil...
someone put a clip of Troy telling data there is no such thing as a negative emotion
They swear to not be soldiers...until they become generals of a slave army.
they teach there 'students' (mind washed children raised in cult) to remove all attachments... you know other then there connection to the order.

They have no oversight, but work in police/;aw enforcement and para military ways along with having influence over the senate.

Oh and one of there main 'tricks' is to speak a command anyone except a strong willed person must do what they say (I mean this is kinda the point of the thread so if you don't think that mind control is evil skip this)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No.

Groping someone who has not consented is worse than punching someone, if we must have a physical example.

The thread is about mind control spells.

speak for yourself I will have some i am unattracted to and don't want to be touched by grab my butt any day over being punched.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Rape describes a specific form of violation that occurs disturbingly often in the real world. It's probably best not to appropriate that language to describe a distinct, fictional form of assault (both out of respect to survivors and in the interest of allowing a constructive dialogue).

It’s the only thing IRL that is remotely comparable. I avoided the term for many pages, but eventually it has to be addressed in order to honestly discuss the topic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

speak for yourself I will have some i am unattracted to and don't want to be touched by grab my butt any day over being punched.

Unless someone says otherwise, we are all speaking for ourselves. That is the default mode of speech.

 

[Fanaelialae]

no, I am suggesting ALL action from magic to swords is evil and thus these are discussions in pointlessness.

That's not unreasonable from a real world perspective.

That said, D&D is a fantasy game. Fantasy tends to rely on a more straightforward morality (good vs evil being a classic theme/trope).

I don't know about you, but when I play D&D I typically want to play a heroic character, without having to worry about the moral implications of killing some bandits who ambushed the party. I think the simpler morality, wherein killing bad guys is something that good guys do, is part of the draw.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

And even physical violence that stops short of killing can inflict lasting trauma (physical or psychological). The same would presumably be true of mind control effects in a setting where they existed. Either form of assault would be evil in most circumstances, but either could plausibly be used (in rare cases) to avert some greater evil.

RPGs in general tend to overlook the lasting consequences of violence and exposure to mental duress unless they are built around them mechanically. I just kind of assume that D&D characters aren't as susceptible to things that would cause lasting physical or psychological damage in the real world unless it's narratively convenient. Adventurers in D&D go out and get stabbed, poisoned, burned, electrocuted, soul-drained, etc in life-or-death battles on a regular basis, which would wreak havoc on real people, who are much more fragile and prone to wear and tear.

You could, if you wanted, take a page out of something like the video game RPG Darkest Dungeon and have adventurers regularly succumbing to physical maladies and mental illness (necessitating a rotating group of adventurers that can fill in while their allies are taking a break to recuperate or to replace ones that are too ill to continue the adventuring lifestyle).

The following are examples of maladies that characters in Darkest Dungeon can develop as a consequence of adventuring:

• Fear of Beasts
• Fear of Mankind
• Fear of Light
• Stress Eater
• Claustrophobia
• Alcoholism

If one wanted, they could homebrew 5E for a greater chance of characters developing such maladies as part of their careers, expanding on the madness and lingering injuries options already in the DMG. If you want to paint enchantment spells as negative you could have their use impose a chance of inflicting some kind of mental disorder.

I also recall that in Critical Role the character Caleb Widogast had something like this as a trait. He had a traumatic event in his life related to fire, and even though he learned the fireball spell and used it in battle at times he had to roll whenever he used it to see if it triggered traumatic memories that would cause him to be stunned for a turn.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

okay, so since we have to lay this out... lets go heroes...

Paul from dune was brought up along with the bene jesuits... I wouldn't count them.

no heroes in DUNE (I think you said earlier maybe Duncan...but no)

Xaiver has been raked over the coals as an antagonist for at least the last 15 years so useing him is hard, especially in current Krarkoa form

he forced his girlfriend to come back to him, he removed family members from peoples memories...not a hero

Obiwan Konobie has the jedi mind trick twice that I recall "you don't want to sell me death stix you want to go home and think about your life" and the more famous "these are not the droids you are looking for" however he is also a lier and manipulator who when called out on being both he justfies it "from a citron point of view"

I already did my Jedi slander...but not a hero.
Luke could have been. He could have started a new academy and made it better.

I did post above in an X men line about all three telepaths and that a) they are reluctant to use mind control/charm (when written as heroes) and b) when they do use it it is somthing they feel bad about.

um...again mass brain washing peeps

Bran in game of thrones (all of the starks if you count worging) are dominating and they go out of there way to show what that is like for poor hodur (and i would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that Bran wasn't doing it for the greater good)

No heroes in SoIaF like DUNE just lots of bad people some you root for.

so please... give me a hero to use.

Martian Manhunter (most likely not)

I can't think of a single telepathic heroes who hasn't gotten some dark arcs. Maybe something that hasn't lasted long enough or was written for children. Mind control doesn't count as very heroic.