D&D 5E Surprise and Sneak Attack

[billd91]

It's a group adventuring game.

Assassin just doesn't work regardless of mechanics for what people want from the archetype.

It's bad that it is in the game because a player will see it and think they can have a certain kind of character. Then they start playing and find out they're going to be travelling around with other characters, usually in dungeons and the wilderness, and not really be an assassin.

The mechanics work fine, it's just that there is no room in the game for an actual assassin.

That's not really true. There are any number of ways a group could work to carve out the space so that a player could make use of their assassination abilities. It's just a question of the group's style and dynamics. There are some groups it won't work for and others it will.

And in the end, I wouldn't want D&D to just focus on the dungeoneering/group friendly options - that's far too limiting. I want D&D to include other options that will work with other group styles.

 

[Umbran]

I understand you cannot grasp ...

Mod Note:
Making personal insults is a really good way to get yourself removed from the conversation.

So, don't to it any more. Thanks.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I understand you cannot grasp "someone surprised at the start of combat remains surprised if they have no evidence combat begins" as being reasonable. But don't project your beliefs as being the only reasonable way to interpret the rules.

The strawman argument is also irrelevant. Your inability to read "surprised" as a natural language word in English, and insistence it must be a status.condition with rigid rules determining its extends, is your choice. But saying anyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable is rather insulting.

A prone character is prone as long as they are prone. There are some rules about getting up from prone (which, sensibly, end up with a character not being prone). Your straw man is again not relevant.

Actually engage with what I am saying, don't make up insane positions. I am saying the rules do not specify when a creature is no longer surprised, it just describes what happens if a creature is surprised at the start of combat.

After that, you are free to invent mechanistic rules to determine when it ends. But insisting that your reading is the only reasonable one is frankly insulting. It can be the only one you can understand as reasonable, I will grant you that.

Mod Note:

People can disagreee without being disagreeable. But slinging phrases like “don't make up insane positions” isn’t an example of doing that.

Please dial it back a notch.

 

[Lyxen]

The 5e rules never describe when being "surprised" ends. They descrive how you can be "surprised at the start of an encouter". They then descrive some consequences. They do not describe over what period of time you are considered "surprised".

You are making the assumption that being surprised is a kind of condition or a status. It's not, it's never described as such. It just says that you have been surprised by the encounter, and it has consequences that are limited in time anyway, not linked to an imaginary status or condition. As for the assassin, the effect is also clearly limited in time, it's against creatures that have not taken their turn yet (hence the importance of initiative), with an additional effect if they were surprised by the encounter.

 

[Lyxen]

That's not really true. There are any number of ways a group could work to carve out the space so that a player could make use of their assassination abilities. It's just a question of the group's style and dynamics. There are some groups it won't work for and others it will.

Exactly, and also note that it's always been part of the exploration pillar, there always were rogues with backstabs and even assassins starting from AD&D because these abilities work even in dungeons.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I'd best describe being surprised as a temporary state, with specific effects. You are either surprised or you aren't. And if you are, then you are until you aren't anymore. And when aren't you surprised anymore? When all of it's effects lapsed.

 

[ad_hoc]

Exactly, and also note that it's always been part of the exploration pillar, there always were rogues with backstabs and even assassins starting from AD&D because these abilities work even in dungeons.

The assassin mechanically works in a typical game it just doesn't work the way most new players envision it to be.

Imagine you've never played a TTRPG game before and then you sit down to play D&D and there is an option called 'assassin'. You may imagine that you will be going around performing assassinations.

That's all. For my very first 5e game I had a new player take Assassin and he was so put out by it that after a few sessions he quit and hasn't played a TTRPG since. I'm sure it wasn't the only factor but I imagine it contributed.

 

[HammerMan]

It's a group adventuring game.

Assassin just doesn't work regardless of mechanics for what people want from the archetype.

It's bad that it is in the game because a player will see it and think they can have a certain kind of character. Then they start playing and find out they're going to be travelling around with other characters, usually in dungeons and the wilderness, and not really be an assassin.

The mechanics work fine, it's just that there is no room in the game for an actual assassin.

i disagree

the game doesn't really have a good room for a resercher, a farmer/gardner, or a memeber of town guard... becuse those too are not really group activities, but they make great wizards, ranger/druids, and Fighters. the skills they make as those things can work great, even if they are not reserching, farming, or working as a guard during an adventure... same for the assassin.

 

[ad_hoc]

i disagree

the game doesn't really have a good room for a resercher, a farmer/gardner, or a memeber of town guard... becuse those too are not really group activities, but they make great wizards, ranger/druids, and Fighters. the skills they make as those things can work great, even if they are not reserching, farming, or working as a guard during an adventure... same for the assassin.

As a background but those aren't classes.

 

[HammerMan]

As a background but those aren't classes.

neither is assassin, it is an add on to a class (a subclass) just like Gladiator (agian not really a group thing most times) Purple Dragon knight (this is a maybe i meanbeing a knight could mean going out with people but not often equals)

Lets look at the thief, most thieves wont be running with warriors and scholars, but for 3 editions (D&D + 2 AD&D) we had a class named thief.