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D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The DM decides if the outcome is in doubt. If they decide it is, they call for a check. Remember that PHB 185 isn't a rule.
It's as much of a rule as "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results." is.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
unless there IS uncertainty. The player needs to know IF the ORC can intimidate them to decide the characters reaction.

SO read the book and set a DC (I can't help because I house ruled DCs long ago).
The book say binary pass/fail based on DC. (I prefer my house rule nuance, but what ever)

YOU are the one declairing no uncertainty, but even THAT is a ruling not a rule.

I have seen people play with your style (although I have out grown it) and it can be fun, but it is no more and no less supported by the current rules.
I don't have a "style." I just describe what the orc does and ask "What do you do?" because I can't say whether the orc's attempt to intimidate the PC is uncertain per the rules.
 

HammerMan

Legend
First, since I don't believe in NPCs "making Deception checks" I also don't really believe auto-success/failure has any meaning. I'd just tell the lie, and if the players believe it, they believe it. It's not an "auto-success" by the NPCs, it's just description.
DO you understand that the DMs ability (or lack of ability) to describe a lie (or a threat, or a persuasive tone) is not what is being tested. It means every lie (or a threat, or a persuasion) regardless of in game skill or stat is dependent on the DM. Even as someone who doesn't like or use the Cha skills for NPCs can you see why some DM/Players would want to use them?

But, in this situation, for those who really want to play it this way, the outcome should be the result of the player, not the NPC. The DC can be the NPCs roll, and instead of a roll (if you don't want to tip off the player) you could use passive Insight. And if you further don't want to tip off the player, use the NPC's passive Deception. If the player succeeds, narrate in a way that leaves a clue.
Not all DMs can narrate those clues. Some can't keep a straight face, some can't think of them.
It's just like a trap, really: you don't "roll for the trap". You might use passive perception, or you might just let the players decide if they want to search.
but you would roll stealth if an NPC was trying to hide right? you would roll athletics to climb (just assume we have gotten passed auto fail/make the rolls)
Although, as I said up-thread, I think it's really hard to do clues without giving the whole thing away. If you add, "and he doesn't make eye contact with you while he's saying it" the player 100% knows you mean the NPC is lying. Which is why I wouldn't bother with any of this.
thats cool I can get why you do it that way.

I will say in my current game I have described every single NPC (even random ones) eye color/shape/appearance in detail, when I never have before... it took 3 sessions for 1 player to say "Hey, I think he is getting to something with the eyes thing..." Only then did they start noting (well the one player that keeps notes reliably) the colors of the eyes (nothing else just color).

We are on session 40ish right now and last night when I described a Green Eyed NPC the note taker's eyes went wide... he activated the group telepathy (maybe it was still up from before I don't remember) and said "I think I got it... all the green eyes are vampires" and almost immediately someone else said "But it's day time..." followed by, "after this lets count up the green eyed NPCs"

It is NOT that all vampires have green eyes, and it is not that only vampire have green eyes...I don't even understand (other then a single set of spawn that both had green almond shaped eyes) what would make him think so...

what players do and don't pick up on is funny. This exact same set of player a little over a year ago picked up on me describing land scapes a way and then unraveled a major secret of the universe in moments...
And again comparing this to traps:: if you sprinkle traps around randomly without broadcasting them, and the players are used to that, they will feel the need to "search for traps" all the time.
I know this is 100% opinion, but I HATE with a passion (both as DM and a Player) the "search every door, every 5ft of hallway" mentality that builds with that style of play, especially when the 1 or 2 first few traps (maybe even just 1 out 3) is deadly or OCULD be deadly.

And if that's the case, I can see why asking them to describe what they are doing (in searching for non-existent traps) instead of just saying "Can I roll to detect traps?" would be a pain. But if they know you won't leave traps without broadcasting them, and the broadcast gives them specific ideas about how to search and what to do, then they will try to describe actions that don't use dice. And, for many of us, this is a lot more fun than saying, "I'll roll Detect Traps" at every door, chest, desk, hallway, etc.
if those were the only 2 choices I would agree with you
Similarly, when preparing an adventure, if there's a Big Lie as part of the plot, make sure to leave a clue. Perhaps prepare ahead of time a mistake the NPC will make in telling the lie (getting a detail wrong, one that the players should know, for example).
yup if you hve the time, and the ability to do so that is great... what about when your players go left and are WAY off plan and you need to improvise...
 

HammerMan

Legend
And you've admitted that's your house rule. Crawford isn't talking about a house rule, so he's referring to RAW which requires certainty/uncertainty to be determined PRIOR to the roll.
no my house rule has to do with the DC, and sometimes when appropriate that if you beat the DC by alot or a little matters (and if you fail by a little or alot.
The basic use of the skill system is not the use of the skills
 

First, since I don't believe in NPCs "making Deception checks" I also don't really believe auto-success/failure has any meaning. I'd just tell the lie, and if the players believe it, they believe it. It's not an "auto-success" by the NPCs, it's just description.
Yes. And this is where I get that all NPC actions are part of step one of the play loop. Much of the time, they are just descriptions that the players can than have their PCs react to (step two). Some of the time (especially combat), these descriptions lead to dice rolls which come to fruition in step three. Sorry. Still thinking about that tangent from earlier in the thread.

But, in this situation, for those who really want to play it this way, the outcome should be the result of the player, not the NPC. The DC can be the NPCs roll, and instead of a roll (if you don't want to tip off the player) you could use passive Insight. And if you further don't want to tip off the player, use the NPC's passive Deception. If the player succeeds, narrate in a way that leaves a clue.

It's just like a trap, really: you don't "roll for the trap". You might use passive perception, or you might just let the players decide if they want to search.

Although, as I said up-thread, I think it's really hard to do clues without giving the whole thing away. If you add, "and he doesn't make eye contact with you while he's saying it" the player 100% knows you mean the NPC is lying. Which is why I wouldn't bother with any of this.

And again comparing this to traps:: if you sprinkle traps around randomly without broadcasting them, and the players are used to that, they will feel the need to "search for traps" all the time. And if that's the case, I can see why asking them to describe what they are doing (in searching for non-existent traps) instead of just saying "Can I roll to detect traps?" would be a pain. But if they know you won't leave traps without broadcasting them, and the broadcast gives them specific ideas about how to search and what to do, then they will try to describe actions that don't use dice. And, for many of us, this is a lot more fun than saying, "I'll roll Detect Traps" at every door, chest, desk, hallway, etc.

Similarly, when preparing an adventure, if there's a Big Lie as part of the plot, make sure to leave a clue. Perhaps prepare ahead of time a mistake the NPC will make in telling the lie (getting a detail wrong, one that the players should know, for example).
So much goodness here.
Telegraphing can be a delicate art at times. Although - and I don't know why I haven't caught on yet - I am consistently surprised that the players don't pick up on my clues more regularly. Even the obvious ones. After the payoff, it usually is a fun "aha" moment though.
 

HammerMan

Legend
I don't have a "style." I just describe what the orc does and ask "What do you do?" because I can't say whether the orc's attempt to intimidate the PC is uncertain per the rules.
what you just said id "I don't have a style" then described your style of handling the game... it isn't "The RAW right way" it is "Your" way.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
no my house rule has to do with the DC, and sometimes when appropriate that if you beat the DC by alot or a little matters (and if you fail by a little or alot.
The basic use of the skill system is not the use of the skills
So look.

"The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that
has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results."

Means that the chance for failure has to be determined BEFORE you roll, not after or during. It's literally impossible to use it the way you do by RAW.
 

HammerMan

Legend
You know this thread (and others like them, not just on this topic) would be WAY more helpful to others if we could discus the pro/con of each style without pretending that 1 way is the only way to read the rules.

It would be more fun too. My favorite interactions in this thread have people asking "Why do you do this" or "How do you do that" and my least favorite is posters pretending they know the only true reading of the PHB
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
@clearstream - not sure if you skipped this on purpose (didn't want to answer) or missed this (because of the volume of posts)
But I am still honestly interested if you are willing to respond with how the specifics of adjudication work at your table.
I am specifically wondering how you adjudicate actions in 5e. Use the examples of 1) a PC trying to intimidate an NPC to make it do X; 2) an NPC trying to intimidate a PC to make them do Y.
I didn't skip on purpose! I would like to call out that the position I am taking in this thread has moved.

My stance is that RAI is that player agency must be preserved. Therefore my earlier example would constitute a house rule. I'd good with that, and won't defend it as RAI.

As to RAW, let's face it - if the DM wants to override player agency, then pretty much anything they wanted to do with an ability check they could do by giving the NPC the necessary spell or trait pulled from RAW that does that same thing! So I see this whole prior-certainty pursuit as a really dedicated chase after something totally fruitless. It's up to the DM and that is established in RAW.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
what you just said id "I don't have a style" then described your style of handling the game... it isn't "The RAW right way" it is "Your" way.
My "style" then is to do what the rules say. I don't have a preference otherwise that I carry from game to game, not counting preferences that exist outside the context of the game.
 

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