D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Charlaquin]

Reread PHB 6.

Could you either quote the section for me or tell me what header to look for? D&D Beyond doesn’t have page numbers, so this isn’t a helpful reference for me.

- In those cases the DM decides what happens... the DM narrates the results. Results are what happens.

This quote?

Sometimes, resolving a task is easy. If an adventurer wants to walk across a room and open a door, the DM might just say that the door opens and describe what lies beyond. But the door might be locked, the floor might hide a deadly trap, or some other circumstance might make it challenging for an adventurer to complete a task. In those cases, the DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action.

The cases being referred to are cases where there is uncertainty in the outcome. The DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action, not to inform their narration. The die roll is used to determine success or failure, not how well the action was executed or how to describe it.

There are many lines of text there and elsewhere buttressing my reading. Your earlier claim to be making a holistic reading has evidently been abandoned.

Not at all. My reading allows all of the text you have so far referenced to be true, while your reading requires it to not always be true that the player decides what their character thinks, says, and does. It is your reading that requires a carve-out, for cases where the outcome of an action would determine what a character thinks, says or does and the DM decides (apropos of no instructions in the text that I can find) is uncertain.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not at all. My reading allows all of the text you have so far referenced to be true, while your reading requires it to not always be true that the player decides what their character thinks, says, and does. It is your reading that requires a carve-out, for cases where the outcome of an action would determine what a character thinks, says or does and the DM decides (apropos of no instructions in the text that I can find) is uncertain.

It's not a rule, it is generic and vague description of what roleplaying roughly is. And we know for absolutely certain that it doesn't literally apply all the time anyway, as there clearly are instances that override it. You just arbitrarily refuse to accept some of them.

 

[Charlaquin]

Read the text holistically, adding that text to text on DMs role in the DMG.

Which text?

The text endorses a DM to decide that something about this instance requires it. Perhaps a player wants to counterspell a specific spell, but not any others. In that case, an INT (Arcana) check can come into it.

Which would be supported by the text of counterspell.

Absolutely! When the outcome is uncertain, do X. As I and others have pointed out, 174 is silent on what makes an outcome uncertain. However, it is explained elsewhere that it's up to the DM to do so. That includes in cases where the outcome might normally be certain.

And there are some ways the DM might do so that are supported by the text and some ways that are not.

 

[Maxperson]

I am enjoying that you disagree with my agreement with you. Top marks!

I wasn't disagreeing with the agreement portion of your post. I am disagreeing with your assessment of my disagreement with your agreement now, though.

I was clarifying that the portion of your response where you said that the DM shouldn't be calling for a roll didn't fit. If the premise is that all failure has meaning like @Lanefan and @Charlaquin put forth for Lanefan's method, then the DM should be calling for rolls every time anything is attempted, even jumping over that rock.

 

[clearstream]

Sometimes, resolving a task is easy. If an adventurer wants to walk across a room and open a door, the DM might just say that the door opens and describe what lies beyond. But the door might be locked, the floor might hide a deadly trap, or some other circumstance might make it challenging for an adventurer to complete a task. In those cases, the DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action.
The cases being referred to are cases where there is uncertainty in the outcome. The DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action, not to inform their narration. The die roll is used to determine success or failure, not how well the action was executed or how to describe it.

1) The cases are of where an outcome is normally certain. As is shown by reading it together with text in the DMG that - a character doesn't normally need to make a Dexterity check to walk across an empty room. What is laid out is that a DM can decide a case that is normally certain, may be uncertain.

2) Read the text immediately following the part you quoted.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's not a rule, it is generic and vague description of what roleplaying roughly is.

I don’t really care what you want to call it. It’s part of the text written in the rulebooks. Call it a rule, call it guidance, whatever, it should still inform our understanding of the rules as written.

And we know for absolutely certain that it doesn't literally apply all the time anyway, as there clearly are instances that override it.

Yes, when specific rules contradict it, those specific rules take precedence, as per PHB 7, “specific beats general.”

You just arbitrarily refuse to accept some of them.

I do not see any part of the rules for ability checks (which PHB 7 seems to define as general rules anyway) that contradicts the statement that the player decides how their character thinks, speaks, and acts.

 

[clearstream]

I wasn't disagreeing with the agreement portion of your post. I am disagreeing with your assessment of my disagreement with your agreement now, though.

Incroyable!

I was clarifying that the portion of your response where you said that the DM shouldn't be calling for a roll didn't fit. If the premise is that all failure has meaning like @Lanefan and @Charlaquin put forth for Lanefan's method, then the DM should be calling for rolls every time anything is attempted, even jumping over that rock.

Ah, right. DMG text certainly envisions that some failures can have no meaning other than preventing further attempts - "In other cases, failing an ability check makes it impossible to make the same check to do the same thing again." But that doesn't rule out failures that have no meaning and wouldn't normally be rolled for... except perhaps as part of concerns raised in the DMG about Dice Rolling and Metagame Thinking.

 

[Charlaquin]

1) The cases are of where an outcome is normally certain. As is shown by reading it together with text in the DMG that - a character doesn't normally need to make a Dexterity check to walk across an empty room. What is laid out is that a DM can decide a case that is normally certain, may be uncertain.

Again, that text demonstrates that the DM can make the outcome of an unchallenging action uncertain by establishing a challenge, not that the DM can make an impossible action possible by changing the circumstances.

2) Read the text immediately following the part you quoted.

3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions.​

Describing the results often leads to another decision point, which brings the flow of the game right back to step 1.​

What of it?

 

[clearstream]

Again, that text demonstrates that the DM can make the outcome of an unchallenging action uncertain by establishing a challenge, not that the DM can make an impossible action possible by changing the circumstances.

DM decides if there is a challenge, including if there is no challenge. All through the rules it is up to the DM (barring your tendentious reading of PHB 185.)

3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions.

​

Describing the results often leads to another decision point, which brings the flow of the game right back to step 1.

What of it?

Those words - outcome, result - what do you understand their meaning to be in English?

 

[Charlaquin]

DM decides if there is a challenge, including if there is no challenge. All through the rules it is up to the DM (barring your tendentious reading of PHB 185.)

Don’t bar my reading of PHB 185. My reading of PHB 185 is part of how I understand the rules to work. As I said, your reading requires an exception to the text stating that the player decides how their character thinks, speaks, and acts, in cases where the DM arbitrarily decides that an action which would determine how their character thinks, speaks, or acts is uncertain. Mine does not, and is still consistent with the other rules you’ve so far cited.

Those words - outcome, result - what do you understand their meaning to be in English?

Outcome: The way a thing turns out; a consequence.
Result: A consequence, effect, or outcome of something.