D&D 5E Teleport: Never been to location, but in possession of an object

[MarkB]

Or, have a nasty letter sent to the local castle and just pick it up from the trash when it's thrown out (finding it via, say, Locate Object). Use it to teleport into the reading room of whomever it was addressed to.

If my players try that, they're totally teleporting into that dumpster.

Also, probably better to do this plan with something non-flammable - chances are that an unwanted letter will go straight into the fireplace.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If my players try that, they're totally teleporting into that dumpster.

Also, probably better to do this plan with something non-flammable - chances are that an unwanted letter will go straight into the fireplace.

That's at least slightly better than if the letter ends up in the latrine.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

I'm gonna implement the rule that the item must be at least 1 inch in size - a single item too, so a pile of dust 1 inch tall is not enough.
In addition, the item must have some monetary or emotional value. I'll keep it vague and I will just put some responsibility on the players.

[...] If the object isn't from that location, or was taken more than 6 months ago, then casting teleport will probably result in a "description" teleport (43% chance of mishap). As such, I disagree that there would be a black market for such goods. Although it is possible that a servant might be contracted by someone nefarious to acquire such an item.

But you may still get opportunistic servants who just grab an item and sell it to some criminal contacts with a description where it's from. These sell it on again, until it gets to the boss of the criminal organization who knows just the person to sell it to. In the real world, there is an idea that all people are six or fewer social connections away from each other (link to wikipedia).

6 Months means an item can change hands dozens of times, and find its way to a high level spellcaster with bad intentions quite easily.

Also, why does a 13th+ level mage want to bamf into the royal mint? Sure, it's got a ton of gold, but a mage of that level probably has more gold than they know what to do with. Additionally, there's no guarantee of what you'd be teleporting into. What if the treasury is guarded by a half dozen golems?

Some mages want to rule the world, and need orders of magnitude more cash than you normally get in a campaign? Out-of-character, it's usually not that the players don't know what to spend money on. They just don't get the opportunity to spend it in the campaign.

Also, bards and sorcs can also cast Teleport, and may be more chaotic in alignment, and steal some cash just for fun.

If you have a treasury with many millions of gold, sure you keep a few golems. But a golem costs in the 50k-100k range, so if your entire fortune is in that same range you will not have such powerful guards inside the treasury to guard only against teleporting baddies.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I definitely don't think a grain of sand should work, nor should an object you know nothing about allow you to teleport to wherever it came from. But if you have a reasonably good description of the location, and a meaningfully-sized object that had been located there for a reasonable period of time, I'd allow it. "Reasonable" and "meaningful" are, of course, vague terms, but that's kind of the point, this has to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

For example, to teleport to a casino, I would absolutely allow a single card from one of their used decks or a single relatively well-used die to count. A die that had only been brought there for five minutes and rolled once would not qualify, even though it is "a die from Asmo's Amusements Casino & Lounge." A card that got shuffled once would also not count, even though it is "a card from that casino."

The suggestion of a "demagnetizer" ritual/effect for stripping location-association from an object is a good one if you're really worried about that--makes any black-market trade in teleport tokens actually difficult, and thus expensive. Conversely, I imagine you could create a ritual that causes all teleports to a particular location to be "funneled" into a particular spot--for example, a noble's castle where the noble wants to have people able to teleport there solely by bearing an official invitation, and all teleports get shunted to the "receiving room" part of the castle. That way you can still have teleports but it becomes much more complicated to teleport to a narrowly-specific part of the estate.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But you may still get opportunistic servants who just grab an item and sell it to some criminal contacts with a description where it's from. These sell it on again, until it gets to the boss of the criminal organization who knows just the person to sell it to. In the real world, there is an idea that all people are six or fewer social connections away from each other (link to wikipedia).

6 Months means an item can change hands dozens of times, and find its way to a high level spellcaster with bad intentions quite easily.


Some mages want to rule the world, and need orders of magnitude more cash than you normally get in a campaign? Out-of-character, it's usually not that the players don't know what to spend money on. They just don't get the opportunity to spend it in the campaign.

Also, bards and sorcs can also cast Teleport, and may be more chaotic in alignment, and steal some cash just for fun.

If you have a treasury with many millions of gold, sure you keep a few golems. But a golem costs in the 50k-100k range, so if your entire fortune is in that same range you will not have such powerful guards inside the treasury to guard only against teleporting baddies.

What criminal is going to buy random junk on the off-chance that a high level mage is going to want to teleport there in the next 6 months? What mage is going to be able to trust the risk of a teleport mishap to such a long (and likely unverifiable) chain of custody? How many evil 13+ level mages need to be running around in your world for this sort of economy to exist? And if high level casters are so commonplace, why aren't spells like Forbiddance similarly common, rendering such an economy moot?

I see an evil mage hiring (or simply charming) a servant to take an item from the place they want to teleport to being a lot more likely than criminals regularly trading real gold for junk that they might not be able to offload before the 6 month "expiration".

I wasn't referring to PCs. I was referring to the idea that a 13+ level mage can likely make gold hand over fist by simply hiring their spellcasting services out. These are people who can perform miraculous feats the likes of which lesser mortals would probably trade much coin for. That's likely to be a better risk/reward than blindly teleporting into the treasury with the intent to rob it. For example, this character obviously knows teleport. They could hire themselves out to a wealthy traveling merchant to instantly move the merchant and his goods around, saving the merchant all that time, danger, and travel costs. What merchant wouldn't jump at that opportunity (assuming they can afford the mage's fee)? I'm not talking about hopping to the town next door, but rather forgoing a long and risky journey by sea.

Unless the kingdom was just established, we're not talking cash on hand, but rather the national equivalent of generational wealth (I'm not an economist). Golems last until destroyed. It's not unreasonable for a kingdom that has been around for hundreds, or even thousands, of years to have numerous golems at their disposal. Also, why would a kingdom's treasury contain less wealth than a high level party's backpacks? To justify the potential risk for rule-the-world types I'd say the treasury ought to contain millions of gp. Whereas the chaotic ones who would do it just for fun probably died long before reaching 13th level, IMO. Of course, that's assuming that no one cast Forbiddance in the first place which, in a world where high level mages are fairly commonplace, you'd really think someone would.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

What criminal is going to buy random junk on the off-chance that a high level mage is going to want to teleport there in the next 6 months?

I have a different picture. I see a professional organization such as the Zhentarim that have an extensive network of low and medium level agents, and a few high level casters.

Now, someone that the Zhent consider reliable sees an opportunity to steal an item from a throne room. All that person must do is contact the Zhentarim. The Zhent may not necessarily have plans to infiltrate the throne room, but hey, it's an opportunity not to be missed. So, some time in the next 6 months they will set up a little distraction, teleport in, rob the place (or assassinate someone), and pop out again.

why aren't spells like Forbiddance similarly common, rendering such an economy moot?

This is exactly the key to the whole problem of bandit-spellcasters.

To prevent teleportation, you must cast 6 months of Forbiddance, once per day. That's about 180 Level 6 spells.
To succeed in teleportation, you need just 1 or 2 teleportation spells.

Even though they are rituals (so you won't run out of spell slots), spellcasters are not likely to be able to cast more than a few Forbiddance spells per day because locations that must be protected are far apart.

My point is: the ratio is completely off.

A single band of roguish spellcasters can hit hundreds of places per year with just 1 spellcaster, and it would require hundreds (or at least dozens) of spellcasters to protect all those places with Forbiddance. (Granted, after 1 year of continuous Forbiddance it's permanent, but it takes only 1 Dispel magic to get rid of it again (which is another weakness for a different thread) and then you gotta cast it again for a whole year).

 

[Fanaelialae]

I have a different picture. I see a professional organization such as the Zhentarim that have an extensive network of low and medium level agents, and a few high level casters.

Now, someone that the Zhent consider reliable sees an opportunity to steal an item from a throne room. All that person must do is contact the Zhentarim. The Zhent may not necessarily have plans to infiltrate the throne room, but hey, it's an opportunity not to be missed. So, some time in the next 6 months they will set up a little distraction, teleport in, rob the place (or assassinate someone), and pop out again.


This is exactly the key to the whole problem of bandit-spellcasters.

To prevent teleportation, you must cast 6 months of Forbiddance, once per day. That's about 180 Level 6 spells.
To succeed in teleportation, you need just 1 or 2 teleportation spells.

Even though they are rituals (so you won't run out of spell slots), spellcasters are not likely to be able to cast more than a few Forbiddance spells per day because locations that must be protected are far apart.

My point is: the ratio is completely off.

A single band of roguish spellcasters can hit hundreds of places per year with just 1 spellcaster, and it would require hundreds (or at least dozens) of spellcasters to protect all those places with Forbiddance. (Granted, after 1 year of continuous Forbiddance it's permanent, but it takes only 1 Dispel magic to get rid of it again (which is another weakness for a different thread) and then you gotta cast it again for a whole year).

I don't think that scenario is so much a black market as a crime of opportunity. Moreover, such an opportunity had best be low risk (something that would have been thrown away) else the Zhent agent is risking their position in the throne room (which is almost guaranteed to be useful) for something that might be useful. IMO, the Zhent would normally wait until they had a need for such an item, rather than risk an agent's cover.

Why are there so many high-level bandit-spellcasters in your campaign to begin with? IMO, that seems to be the actual problem. The attrition rate of bandit-spellcasters would be far greater than that of service-providing-spellcasters. The bandit might get killed pulling off a job, or hunted down by adventurers after the fact. The service-providing spellcaster likely has a cushy and safe city job. If it's casting Forbiddance, that's 10 minutes of work a day (assuming a single location). The rest of their time is their own. Sounds a lot better than banditry.

Most high level casters could likely live in luxury simply providing services like casting Forbiddance. Services which are, notably, quite safe. I think you have the ratio backwards. The majority of high-level casters would not be petty criminals, because they have no good motivation to do so. They should be able to easily acquire gold in exchange for their services. If a high level mage is choosing to be a criminal, then it's more likely as a mastermind, for things that money can't directly buy, like power. If the vast majority of high level mages are providing services like Forbiddance, then it's absolutely plausible that they could protect important places from bandit-spellcasters. After all, you have to be on-site to cast Dispel Magic, in which case you probably don't need to teleport there. Dispelling also comes with its own risks, such as getting caught. An apprentice with Detect Magic can verify whether or not the spell is in place.

Again, it's a case of "generational wealth". Sure, if your nation was founded yesterday you might have a lot of work to do in shoring up the magical defenses. However, if your nation has been around for hundreds of years then some of those Forbiddance spells could be hundreds of years old. It's not like you need a gaggle of mages to cast the ritual everywhere at once.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[aco175]

This is one reason my games do not generally get that high in level. At some point the feel gets disrupted. If someone can teleport into the castle we need to make the walls out of lead and forbiddance spells. What about the treasury- we need golems and astral devas there. How much does that cost- who cares, we need to foil the players- I mean anyone trying to steal from us. I make a spell to bypass forbiddance and trap teleport misdirection. I make a spell to bypass your bypass and places you either by the pet dragons or in room 9 of Tomb of Annihilation, but sends all your stuff to me instead. Ha- I mean that's what the king would spend his money on instead of for other projects.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This is one reason my games do not generally get that high in level. At some point the feel gets disrupted. If someone can teleport into the castle we need to make the walls out of lead and forbiddance spells. What about the treasury- we need golems and astral devas there. How much does that cost- who cares, we need to foil the players- I mean anyone trying to steal from us. I make a spell to bypass forbiddance and trap teleport misdirection. I make a spell to bypass your bypass and places you either by the pet dragons or in room 9 of Tomb of Annihilation, but sends all your stuff to me instead. Ha- I mean that's what the king would spend his money on instead of for other projects.

Personally, my philosophy wrt a high level game is to let it ride.

The world has defenses against things that would be reasonable for the world to have. If high-level mage-bandits are commonplace, then Forbiddance and the like are also commonplace. If not, then not.

If that makes it easy for the PCs to waltz into the palace treasury, good for them. Play it out and see what happens, consequences and all. At those levels, IMO, the PCs ought to be one of the major players of the world. That's the draw, as I see it.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I wasn't referring to PCs. I was referring to the idea that a 13+ level mage can likely make gold hand over fist by simply hiring their spellcasting services out. These are people who can perform miraculous feats the likes of which lesser mortals would probably trade much coin for. That's likely to be a better risk/reward than blindly teleporting into the treasury with the intent to rob it. For example, this character obviously knows teleport. They could hire themselves out to a wealthy traveling merchant to instantly move the merchant and his goods around, saving the merchant all that time, danger, and travel costs. What merchant wouldn't jump at that opportunity (assuming they can afford the mage's fee)? I'm not talking about hopping to the town next door, but rather forgoing a long and risky journey by sea.

In such a universe, Marco Polo would have brought back cobblestone from China instead of silk. "Look, now China is only a six-second incantation away!" The implication of widely available high magic are plentiful.

Personally, my philosophy wrt a high level game is to let it ride.

Yes. If the world has few high level spellcasters, as in "their powers are unheard of", there would be no defence against teleporting a greater invisible thief into the Treasury. The culprit could steal the king's treasury, of course. Fort Knox has no defence against teleportation, because we deem 15th level spellcasters rare enough to discount their existence... In such a context, I'd do what logic dictates and have no countermeasures. In such a world, a 13th level spellcasters should have other problems than robbing a king. That's the goal of a 5th level Robin Hood. A 13th level wizard should concern himself to rob the Sultan of the City of Brass of its magical items and a 18th level one should try to steal Memnon's place from him.

If playing in a world where high level magic is common enough so it makes sense to defend against, then yes, it leads to a Tippyverse. But those can be immense fun by virtue of being logical.