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D&D 5E Yes to factionalism. No to racism.

Lyxen

Great Old One
The point is you shouldn't try and force people to learn a whole new tangential skill just to play a casual game.

That I can completely agree with indeed.

Especially when it's sometimes just a veiled attempt to discourage a certain kind of enjoyment of the game in the form of making certain races less desirable to play.

It's a leisure activity, and it's a very open one, so what might be less desirable for some might actually be more enjoyable for others. Along these lines, some people will completely disregard the races except probably for technical effects and others might enjoy them, even if they are roleplaying just a bit of them and possibly not that well. Just leave the options open.
 

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Darkvision
Fluff based on previous orc bandit attacks (weapons they favour, tactics they use)
Historic tendency to be less organised
Difficult to try and communicate with if they only speak orc
Historic tendency to want to get into melee quicker, as they can hit harder, and have various traits
Able to drag things off better
and
Fluff based on previous or bandit attacks

so loads, unless orcs in your world are bland and just humans in a rubber mask
That doesn't amount to a very significant difference, sorry, and "historic tendency to be less organised"? Bollocks to that. Orcs, in general, are more organised than Bandits. They can't drag things off meaningfully better. Darkvision merely impacts the time they're likely to be able to attack - that's the only real difference, too. The tactical difference will be more like 10% (mayb 20% if you include time of day) than 66%.

The difference between Orc Bandits and Human Bandits is far, far smaller than the difference between those two and Elven Bandits, let alone between those three and Dragonborn Bandits.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I don't think anyone was not leaving the options open, just separating what you're physically born as from what your culture molds you into.

Well, that's not what I read initially on this thread, where what you are born into is basically a "No" (in addition to the way it was formulated).

Like how elves are currently born with a genetic memory of longsword proficiency. Ya know, normal stuff people are born with.

And my point is that not only is it fairly important even in our real world, but I do believe that being born with actually extremely differentiating abilities and capabilities, including magical ones would probably mold not only you but your culture extremely strongly.
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
And my point is that not only is it fairly important even in our real world, but I do believe that being born with actually extremely differentiating abilities and capabilities, including magical ones would probably mold not only you but your culture extremely strongly.
I'd ask you to consider the context of this thread being on species-wide ability and capability assignment and really reconsider what you're saying here trying to invoke the 'real world'.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
My perspective is that, for best effect, they should not only be both of them, they should not only be additive, they should also be logically assembled. D&D Worlds are as competitive as the real one, possibly even more so, so a species that has carved itself a niche because of its capacities will tend to keep it and develop a culture around it. And, possibly in fantasy worlds where there is a mythical origin, there is a tie in to that. Tolkien had it for its races and the cultures that derived from it. And if a species race has no natural habitat but is rejected from everywhere else because all the good spots are taken - meaning that it does not have inborn competitive advantage, then it would affect its culture as well (and it might be different cultures depending on where it ends up settling..

After that, the extent to which the players are actually using the material provided to them by the race/culture/etc. is entirely up to them and their preferences. But I would like to point out that the races inborn capabilities have at least a chance to remain in play even with a player that does not care much about the fluff, and at least it would provide some variety and make the character consistent with the race, and therefore at least partially with the culture if the two are reasonably derived from each other.

E.g., once more, in RQ, a player might be wanting to play a dark troll because of its powers, but the way it's built technically would at least draw him towards at least something a bit trollish, just because the dark troll is physically powerful, has dark sense and is connected to the Darkness rune.
I think that logically assembled and leaving options open are a bit contrary choices - there's a binary where you can either have plenty of options to tweak and twist the system, or you can have a very specific campaign world that sets the assumptions about different peoples locked in.

D&D cannot by its default be the latter or it would cease to be D&D, it would be an individual fantasy game. It's also bad at replicating the needs of an individual fantasy world; when you don't have to accomodate so many different playstyles and worldbuilding choices, you can really dial in the mechanics of the game to suit your particular game-world needs.

The issue we're facing is that D&D ORIGINATED as a game in the 1970s with a very specific mechanical system to represent a very specific fantasy world view that, while not confined to a single campaign setting, was confined to very closely akin settings that could easily be stacked into the same world. There's still a place for Blackmoor in the World of Oerth, after all. In Mystara, too.

These were different "worlds" but they had the same baseline assumptions and the rules were written to meet those baseline assumptions. But along the way, the assumptions broadened. It's basically impossible to play a Birthright campaign in 5e currently, because we don't have the tools to do so and playtesting those tools would take a long time. The assumptions are just so different that it's ALMOST a different game altogether from D&D proper. But it's compatible. Birthright would likely be better suited with its own mechanics as a tabletop game divorced from D&D. Dark Sun too - it's got so many assumptions that break the mold that D&D's core rules and assumptions are not really compatible with the world. Ravenloft fits into this category of settings too.

I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T be D&D. They should be. But that's because what D&D IS in terms of setting assumptions has broadened immensely. And when you broaden like that, you need to be ready for all circumstances and not lock players into the assumptions of one world.


That's why we have this new text in the PHB reprints for Drow:

The cult of the god Lolth, Queen of Spiders, has corrupted some of the oldest drow cities, especially in the worlds of Oerth and Toril. Eberron, Krynn, and other realms have escaped the cult’s influence—for now. Wherever the cult lurks, drow heroes stand on the front lines in the war against it, seeking to sunder Lolth’s web.

The culture of Lolth's cult dominates Greyhawk and Toril, but not Eberron, Krynn, etc. Your campaign world might have heroic Drow as the norm but they're suggesting that the cult is likely present there too, or seeking to cross-over to your Material Plane to take over the Drow there too. Seeing as Lolth rules from the Demonweb Pits in the Abyss and most worlds have active connections to the Great Wheel, this is more likely than it seems. Maybe not for Athas, Krynn, or Eberron, but your home plane may just use the Great Wheel as an assumption. And if so, you should consider as a DM having the Cult of Lolth exist in your world, seeping over through the Abyss to your Material Plane. But it need not be the assumption. It's an evil culture, not a lineage trait of evil.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Like how elves are currently born with a genetic memory of longsword proficiency. Ya know, normal stuff people are born with.

Stop inserting modern biology, and it becomes easier.

In older D&D cosmologies, for example, humans had souls, and elves had spirits - spirits would typically reincarnate eventually, souls would not. If you carry the spirit of an elf that's been around several times, having some ingrained skill memories doesn't sound so preposterous as it being "genetic memory" does.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
Stop inserting modern biology, and it becomes easier.

In older D&D cosmologies, for example, humans had souls, and elves had spirits - spirits would typically reincarnate eventually, souls would not. If you carry the spirit of an elf that's been around several times, having some ingrained skill memories doesn't sound so preposterous as it being "genetic memory" does.

This is about as fair as all Elves are born knowing Elvish intrinsically, and there being some debate among the scholars of Aerenal and the Tairendal whether Half-elves know it or have to learn it - to know it would mean that they're actually truly Tairendal themselves and should have full status in the realms of Elvendom, while to have to learn it would mean they're just filthy humans with some Elvish traits from their traitor parent who should be outcast for daring to mingle with another kind.

I think there's plenty of room for some campaign worlds to take this approach.

But remember that Keith Baker's approach to world-building is to look at the mechanics he's been dealt with and try to justify them within the context of the world. So All Elves know Elvish? That's because it's intrinsically a part of them.

If he was building the Elf lineage from scratch, I doubt he'd be trying to force longsword proficiency. In fact, his Aernal Elves explicitly substitute in a Tool proficiency instead, while the Valenar substitute in Double Scimitars.

There needs to be room for both interpretations, and for greater and lesser degrees of cultural influence upon a character's upbringing. But we also need to not overwhelm new players with options paralysis. 5e is the quickest to start edition of the game, that should NOT change in 2024 (in fact, if anything, I think that the anniversary revisions should make it QUICKER to start, not slower, if they want to gather in even more players).
 


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