D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[Charlaquin]

I get that this is the case for 5e D&D. But it's pretty straightforward RPG design to generalise this across non-combat resolution. 4e shows one way this can be done using D&D-style PC build and action resolution infrastructure.

So it must tell us something pretty particular about 5e D&D that it doesn't generalise as 4e does.

Agreed!!!

 

[Bill Zebub]

It occurs to me that it is within the scope of narrating result (in the basic pattern) to narrate a degree of success or failure.

Sure, but I do like games that have mechanical degrees of success. Usually involving a dice pool rather than a single die.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But if someone thinks that the PC's skill at being sneaky should correlate to some representation of that skill on their PC sheet (say, their DEX (Stealth) bonus) then there will be a problem for them.

It does correlate exactly. If an ability check is called for, they are more likely to succeed at it.

As I've posted already, with quotes from the 5e Basic PDF, there is textual support in the 5e rules for the second person's thought as much as there is for your approach. I think the tension in the text is not only obvious but deliberate - the resolution of the tension by different groups in different ways enables the text to support a wider range of RPGing approaches than it otherwise might. Which is an obvious commercial goal for WotC.

Sure. Could be.

Why use the word make? The issue is do you permit them to do so? At my table, if someone wants to speak as their PC, and it is a powerful thing that they say or do, that is part of the fiction that is relevant to adjudication.

I don't need to "permit" anything. The players are free to declare any action they like for their PC in whatever way they feel comfortable. I'll adjudicate accordingly. Or are you saying the permission is then in the adjudication? I guess, insofar as adjudication success is permission and failure is lack thereof. Speaking as one's PC is great, but not a requirement to play or succeed at our table.

And why are there in game bonus points for knowing about tank traps, but not for knowing the collected works of Shakespeare and/or Churchill?

If the player wanted to invoke Shakespeare or Churchill quotes in their speech, that's great. If another player wanted to describe 3rd person how their PC "gives a rousing speech complete with Shakespeare quotes". Hey, that works, too. DC is going to be the same as they described exactly the same thing in the game world. Actual real world knowledge is optional at the table.

I'm not trying to "gotcha" you here, just pointing out that the line you seem to see as obvious is not self-evident at all, but is a line that you have constructed.

I'm not following you here. It is obvious at our table because I don't play favorites to word-smiths. Does that make more sense?

Just as you think I build tank traps like <goes on to describe the tank traps in general terms, and how they can be build using rope and timber> is a better action declaration than simply I erect fortifications to defend the homestead, so I think that a powerful oration is a better action declaration than simply I orate powerfully, pointing out the many sacrifices that have already been made in pursuit of the cause.

That still leaves open how the better action declaration feeds into resolution. There are different ways of doing that; I've posted how I handled it in 4e. I don't think it's as straightforward in 5e.

I never played 4e so couldn't say. Again, real world knowledge is optional at our table. Just be specific (i.e. not vague) with your action declaration so I have something to adjudicate.

I just think this varies from RPG to RPG. And can vary even within the confines of 5e D&D.

Probably? I haven't played other RPGs (except for Pathfinder for a few sessions... but I don't like to talk about that ) and you don't play 5e, so here we are.

I mean, suppose my 18 INT wizard PC is playing a chess game against the 8 INT barbarian PC to determine <some wacky but high stakes thing that has come to pass in the campaign>. There are any number of ways to resolve this, from straight the 18 INT beats the 8 INT to make opposed INT checks to OK, you two players play a chess game here-and-now. And of course other possibilities too.

I don't think any of these ways is self-evidently correct, even within the confines of 5e D&D. But I can easily see individual 5e players having a pretty strong preference that it should be done this way rather than this other way.

Sure, that's part of the art of DMing 5e. Determining how to adjudicate fairly in the moment backed by the rules (and guidance!) in the books.

 

[iserith]

I don't play favorites to word-smiths.

 

[Oofta]

One of the issues I have with these conversations is that we can never seem to just discuss specifics. We go from "how does describing how you climb a wall mean automatic success where rolling a dice means possible failure" to <poof> there's a rickety latter that can be climbed that was never mentioned previously. It feels like we either talk past each other or the goalposts keep moving.

So how about this scenario:

The PCs need to get into a warehouse. Their informant has told them that there's a back door but it's barred from the inside at night so it can't be opened from the outside without some sort of magic. If it comes up the DM reminds the players that knock can heard up to 300 feet away. If someone can get inside they can open the back door. You'd rather not kill any guards if it can at all be avoided.

Casing the place, the PCs notice several things

• There's a single guard but they're sitting about 10 feet away from the front door, sitting on a barrel slumped against the wall. You can't tell if they're awake or not.
• The streets at night are deserted, there are crates and barrels along with a wagon on the street. You might be able to sneak into the front door without being noticed, you can't tell.
• The warehouse also has a cupola on the roof for ventilation, you could probably get in that way if you can get up to the roof. There is a drain pipe for the eves on the side of the warehouse out of sight from the guard that might support someone but you're not certain. In any case it could be difficult climb up.

How would you handle this scenario?

 

[Bill Zebub]

One of the issues I have with these conversations is that we can never seem to just discuss specifics. We go from "how does describing how you climb a wall mean automatic success where rolling a dice means possible failure" to <poof> there's a rickety latter that can be climbed that was never mentioned previously. It feels like we either talk past each other or the goalposts keep moving.

So how about this scenario:

The PCs need to get into a warehouse. Their informant has told them that there's a back door but it's barred from the inside at night so it can't be opened from the outside without some sort of magic. If it comes up the DM reminds the players that knock can heard up to 300 feet away. If someone can get inside they can open the back door. You'd rather not kill any guards if it can at all be avoided.

Casing the place, the PCs notice several things

• There's a single guard but they're sitting about 10 feet away from the front door, sitting on a barrel slumped against the wall. You can't tell if they're awake or not.
• The streets at night are deserted, there are crates and barrels along with a wagon on the street. You might be able to sneak into the front door without being noticed, you can't tell.
• The warehouse also has a cupola on the roof for ventilation, you could probably get in that way if you can get up to the roof. There is a drain pipe for the eves on the side of the warehouse out of sight from the guard that might support someone but you're not certain. In any case it could be difficult climb up.

How would you handle this scenario?

Oooh oooh I know...

"I roll Persuasion and convince the guard to let us in.....23 that's a success, right?"

 

[Cadence]

One of the issues I have with these conversations is that we can never seem to just discuss specifics. We go from "how does describing how you climb a wall mean automatic success where rolling a dice means possible failure" to <poof> there's a rickety latter that can be climbed that was never mentioned previously. It feels like we either talk past each other or the goalposts keep moving.

So how about this scenario:

The PCs need to get into a warehouse. Their informant has told them that there's a back door but it's barred from the inside at night so it can't be opened from the outside without some sort of magic. If it comes up the DM reminds the players that knock can heard up to 300 feet away. If someone can get inside they can open the back door. You'd rather not kill any guards if it can at all be avoided.

Casing the place, the PCs notice several things

• There's a single guard but they're sitting about 10 feet away from the front door, sitting on a barrel slumped against the wall. You can't tell if they're awake or not.
• The streets at night are deserted, there are crates and barrels along with a wagon on the street. You might be able to sneak into the front door without being noticed, you can't tell.
• The warehouse also has a cupola on the roof for ventilation, you could probably get in that way if you can get up to the roof. There is a drain pipe for the eves on the side of the warehouse out of sight from the guard that might support someone but you're not certain. In any case it could be difficult climb up.

How would you handle this scenario?

Ask questions... lots of questions (and check my character sheet).

Are there windows? Is there a chimney? Do I have a sleep spell? Do I have silence and can it cover the sound of knock? What are the walls made out of? Is there a sewer system in the area?

 

[iserith]

Examples are traps. Keep watch for danger.

 

[Maxperson]

It occurs to me that it is within the scope of narrating result (in the basic pattern) to narrate a degree of success or failure.

I do that sometimes, but when I do it's me being interpretive of the die roll, not the game providing a mechanism for degrees of success. The closest 5e comes to that are the success at a cost guideline(DMG 242) and degrees of failure guideline(DMG 242) for when you fail by a few points.

 

[Oofta]

Ask questions... lots of questions (and check my character sheet).

Are there windows? Is there a chimney? Do I have a sleep spell? Do I have silence and can it cover the sound of knock? What are the walls made out of? Is there a sewer system in the area?

No windows or chimney, it's a warehouse. The walls are brick, this is the docks, the sewer is a trench in the middle of the street. You tell me, do you have the sleep or silence spells?