D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Cap'n Kobold]

Do people think that a Heroic class should have a lot of very specific capabilities, or fewer, versatile powers?

 

[Minigiant]

However, this is not the point of the OP or this discussion. I've let things drift for a bit to allow for brainstorming but let me try and refocus the conversation.

The goal of this thread is not to turn martials into superheroes, or even mythic heroes. Simply put, too much of the community is against that notion, and as you noted, trying to push that notion is pointless.

The real discussion then, is how much can we push the power of martials but still leave them "mundane" in flavor. How far can we push it where most people would say "ok, I could see a crazy high level guy pull that off" vs "you would need like divine power or something to do that".

I think the first step is to list what aspects martials are allowed to increase as bonuses everyone agrees with

1. Accuracy
2. Actions
3. Armor class
4. Attacks
5. Climb/Jump/Swim speed
6. Hit Points
7. Movement speed
8. Skill Checks
9. Unarmored Damage
10. Weapon Damage

Now the questionable stuff

1. Ability Score
2. Attack rerolls
3. Bypass Resistance
4. Darkvision
5. Immunities
6. Immortality
7. Resistances
8. Save or Die

Basically which Epic Boons should be not Epic for pure Martal?

 

[Minigiant]

So I went through all the epic boons and made a list of which could be perceived as nonmagical


DEFINITELY COULD BE NONMAGICAL
Boon of Combat Prowess
Boon of Fortitude
Boon of Immortality
Boon of Invincibility
Boon of Irresistible Offense
Boon of Peerless Aim
Boon of Perfect Health
Boon of Recovery
Boon of Resilience
Boon of Skill Proficiency
Boon of Speed
Boon of the Unfettered
Boon of Undetectability

POSSIBLY NONMAGICAL
Boon of Fate
Boon of Luck

LIKELY MAGICAL BUT COULD BE JUSTIFIED AS NONMAGICAL
Boon of Magic Resistance
Boon of Planar Travel
Boon of the Fire Soul
Boon of the Night Spirit
Boon of the Stormborn
Boon of Truesight

DEFINITELY MAGICAL
Boon of Dimensional Travel
Boon of High Magic
Boon of Quick Casting
Boon of Spell Mastery
Boon of Spell Recall

 

[DND_Reborn]

Do people think that a Heroic class should have a lot of very specific capabilities, or fewer, versatile powers?

My vote is for a lot of very specific capabilities.

@Minigiant I like the direction you're thinking is going!

Finally before I head out, something I thought of the other day when it comes to WotC and the apparent focus of D&D:

Each of these highlighted sections focuses on spellcasters for the most part. Very little is commented on as to what other classes are capable of.

It's a pity, really, IMO.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Or maybe there's mundane techniques in-universe that detect magic without spells or magic items.

Turns out magic has a special vibration that someone trained to listen for it can 'feel out'. Or a scent like ozone that varies based on type and magnitude.

Anything besides magic is a special thing out of context for the world and not actually a part of the fantasy world.

I already do this non-magically for creatures trained in Arcana (though I recognize that this benefits wizards more than other classes).

I’ve been toying with making it explicit to my players that magic is a difference of degree, not of kind.

I.e.

• You can detect magic with your mundane senses: Detect Magic is simply an automatic success;
• There are no diseases or poisons that can only be cured magically, a high Medecine roll is always more effective than Cure Disease, though Cure Disease and Cure Poison save you from investing in the Medecine skill;
• Invisibility requires you to take the Hide action to actually hide. It stands to reason that you aren’t truly invisible, just transparent. This also goes for invisible sensors and the like;
• the Alarm spell can be defeated by a sufficiently high Stealth roll;
• Neither LTH nor Wall of Force are impervious to damage, though Wall of force is more solid.

 

[Minigiant]

My vote is for a lot of very specific capabilities.

@Minigiant I like the direction you're thinking is going!

Finally before I head out, something I thought of the other day when it comes to WotC and the apparent focus of D&D:
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Each of these highlighted sections focuses on spellcasters for the most part. Very little is commented on as to what other classes are capable of.

It's a pity, really, IMO.

It's less focus and more that 5E was written based on a survey that was too high of a bar to make a consensus of what warriors look like after level 5.

The playtest focused a lot on the fighter class and the community could not agree on what it it. WOTC was not willing to bitr the bullet and make a decision on their own because of 4e's reaction.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The problem has always been that D&D NEVER sets a 'this is what magic can't do' limit. Like, ever. It looks at the game's rule or some part of the game world and thing 'Magic should break that." and never holds back. Magic SHOULD have clear limits. If nothing else, a ton of stuff should be kept OUT of Arcane and given fully to Psionic. No more mind reading for you, Mr. Wizard. That's the Psion's turf.

This. In the PHB, Bards got a nifty exclusive spell that gives an opponent disadvantage on their first attack. In Xanathar’s, Wizards get the same thing with a spell that does more damage (but targets a higher save). In the PHB, one difference between Sorcerers and Wizards is that Sorcerers get access to the nifty 1-hour buff: Enhance Ability. Come Tasha’s, Wizards get it too. If I remember correctly, Xanathar and Tasha’s also gave Wizards access to radiant damage, something that used to be closed to them.

 

[FrozenNorth]

- You can detect magic with your mundane senses: Detect Magic is simply an automatic success;

• There are no diseases or poisons that can only be cured magically, a high Medecine roll is always more effective than Cure Disease, though Cure Disease and Cure Poison save you from investing in the Medecine skill;
• Invisibility requires you to take the Hide action to actually hide. It stands to reason that you aren’t truly invisible, just transparent. This also goes for invisible sensors and the like;
• the Alarm spell can be defeated by a sufficiently high Stealth roll;
• Neither LTH nor Wall of Force are impervious to damage, though Wall of force is more solid.

Another example (dovetailing with another thread). Anything created by magic can be targetted by attacks: Evard’s tentacles, spiritual weapons, Bigby’s hand, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

So I went through all the epic boons and made a list of which could be perceived as nonmagical


DEFINITELY COULD BE NONMAGICAL
Boon of Combat Prowess
Boon of Fortitude
Boon of Immortality
Boon of Invincibility
Boon of Irresistible Offense
Boon of Peerless Aim
Boon of Perfect Health
Boon of Recovery
Boon of Resilience
Boon of Skill Proficiency
Boon of Speed
Boon of the Unfettered
Boon of Undetectability

POSSIBLY NONMAGICAL
Boon of Fate
Boon of Luck

LIKELY MAGICAL BUT COULD BE JUSTIFIED AS NONMAGICAL
Boon of Magic Resistance
Boon of Planar Travel
Boon of the Fire Soul
Boon of the Night Spirit
Boon of the Stormborn
Boon of Truesight

DEFINITELY MAGICAL
Boon of Dimensional Travel
Boon of High Magic
Boon of Quick Casting
Boon of Spell Mastery
Boon of Spell Recall

That’s an interesting idea. For a quick adjustment, you could give a 16th level fighter say a bonus “epic boon”. That would be a major boost in power, and the player can decide if they want more magical or keep it mundane

 

[DND_Reborn]

That’s an interesting idea. For a quick adjustment, you could give a 16th level fighter say a bonus “epic boon”. That would be a major boost in power, and the player can decide if they want more magical or keep it mundane

Would something like a boon awarded when casters get certain spell levels work?

At most, maybe 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th? But that might be too much, LOL!