D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[p_johnston]

So lets take a thought experiment to compare SB to disadvantage.

Your dm rolls 2 dice and hides the values. 1 is a success 1 is a failure. The dm allows you to choose which one they use. You have SB and a 1st level spell that as a reaction you can cause the target to receive disadvantage on a save.

1) you use the disadvantage spell. 100% success 100% you use up a spell and reaction.
2) you pick a dice and the target fails. 100% success. No spell used.
3) you pick a dice and the target succeeds. You use SB to force the target to use the other dice and they fail. The target fails and you use a spell.

The only difference between SB and a equivalent spell that gives disadvantage is with SB you might not have to use it some percent of the time as long as you consider the chance from the initial casting of the spell to the resolution.

P.S. i think banishment is getting used as a generic save or suck spell in the thread because its a good example of one that is low enough level to see play but high enough level to be a real resource cost. For the argument hold spells hypno pattern, dominate spells, etc could replace it fairly easily.

 

[p_johnston]

So 21 pages in, pretty sure we have all of the arguments we are going to get, so here is my summary:

Silvery Barbs is OP

• Ability to augment saving throws is a very powerful ability (often a class/subclass feature, equivalent to heighten spell) and is now given as a 1st level spell, that can stack or work together with other saving throw augment effects. This opens up an entire new arena of spell power.
• Spell is incredibly versatile even beyond saving throws, with the ability to negate crits, augment dispel checks, help an ally saving throw, etc.
• Spell has a very strong scaling. Its good at low levels, and continues to get better and better at higher levels.
• Ability is only consumed when needed, making it in some ways superior to other abilities that require you to spend them before you know the initial result.

Silvery Barbs is Powerful but not OP

• The need for a reaction is a major cost, having it directly compete with other "top tier spells" like shield and absorb energy.
• Silvery Barbs is only really strong in cases where you miss with a saving throw against a creature within 60 feet, and the saving throw was a difficult one to make in the first place. These cases should be rare, which weakens how often the spell will actually be "game changing".
• The spell burns through spell slots quickly, ultimately leading to a spellcaster with limited spell slots towards the end of a long adventuring day.

So....after all of this discussion, am I going to ban silvery barbs out of the gate?

I think my plan for the spell will be to put it on my "aggressive watch list". Aka if a player is interested in the spell, I tell them "honestly I have a great fear this spell is OP, and I will watch it very carefully. I reserve the right to remove it at any time, and if your not comfortable with that, I recommend avoiding the spell."

I did the same thing with counterspell, and ultimately did ban counterspell in my games (I hate that spell so very much). I also did that with the original healing spirit, and I wound up eventually houseruling the spell until the official change came out.

So my track record, is that any spell that goes on my watch list, generally gets some adjustment from me before all is said and done. Will silvery barbs get the same, we will see, but I think that is my plan for now.

Perfectly fair. Im in about the same boat that I'll let it get used and just warn players i reserve the right to ban/modify it as i feel necessary.

 

[Garthanos]

Some day discussions will be about some new martial ability which was so overpowered it needed banned or watched carefully or whatever but I am not holding my breath

 

[Dausuul]

I don't think I've spotted this. How are they doing it?

Pact of the Chain + Investment of the Chain Master, I think. You can get a sprite familiar, direct it to attack, and if it hits and the target fails the save, it inflicts the poisoned condition for 1 minute, which is disadvantage on attacks and ability checks. If it fails by 5 or more, it's knocked unconscious till it takes damage or someone wakes it up. Investment of the Chain Master lets you direct the sprite to attack as a bonus action and use your save DC instead of its own measly 10.

Of course, this requires:

a) a successful attack roll, and
b) the monster failing a Con save, and
c) the monster not being immune to poison, which is far and away the most common immunity, and
d) putting your 2-hit-point familiar within 40 feet of the enemy* and making it visible,
e) when it isn't the familiar's turn, so it can't shoot and immediately zip away to safety.

It's a very strong pick for a chainlock, quite possibly the best available. But considering the attack roll and the Con save, you're only going to land it about 50% of the time at best, and keeping the familiar alive is a significant challenge.

Hey, want to sharply improve your chances of landing it? What if there was a low-level spell the party wizard could cast when the target made their Con save, which would both force them to re-roll the save and grant the sprite advantage on its next attack roll? Hmm... seems like I read about a spell like that somewhere...

*Or 120 feet and disadvantage on the attack roll.

 

[ad_hoc]

So 21 pages in, pretty sure we have all of the arguments we are going to get, so here is my summary:

Silvery Barbs is OP

• Ability to augment saving throws is a very powerful ability (often a class/subclass feature, equivalent to heighten spell) and is now given as a 1st level spell, that can stack or work together with other saving throw augment effects. This opens up an entire new arena of spell power.
• Spell is incredibly versatile even beyond saving throws, with the ability to negate crits, augment dispel checks, help an ally saving throw, etc.
• Spell has a very strong scaling. Its good at low levels, and continues to get better and better at higher levels.
• Ability is only consumed when needed, making it in some ways superior to other abilities that require you to spend them before you know the initial result.

Silvery Barbs is Powerful but not OP

• The need for a reaction is a major cost, having it directly compete with other "top tier spells" like shield and absorb energy.
• Silvery Barbs is only really strong in cases where you miss with a saving throw against a creature within 60 feet, and the saving throw was a difficult one to make in the first place. These cases should be rare, which weakens how often the spell will actually be "game changing".
• The spell burns through spell slots quickly, ultimately leading to a spellcaster with limited spell slots towards the end of a long adventuring day.

So....after all of this discussion, am I going to ban silvery barbs out of the gate?

I think my plan for the spell will be to put it on my "aggressive watch list". Aka if a player is interested in the spell, I tell them "honestly I have a great fear this spell is OP, and I will watch it very carefully. I reserve the right to remove it at any time, and if your not comfortable with that, I recommend avoiding the spell."

I did the same thing with counterspell, and ultimately did ban counterspell in my games (I hate that spell so very much). I also did that with the original healing spirit, and I wound up eventually houseruling the spell until the official change came out.

So my track record, is that any spell that goes on my watch list, generally gets some adjustment from me before all is said and done. Will silvery barbs get the same, we will see, but I think that is my plan for now.

You've missed one which I find has been ignored when I bring it up.

SB works with all saving throw spells and abilities for the entire party.

There are going to be a lot more opportunities for great uses of it than are being presented here because arguments are always from the perspective of the caster augmenting their own spells only.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

They may be a lot of opportunities to cast SB in play but there are other things to do with first level slots. I play an old character (40 years old) in a recently revived campaign. She is a ranger/wizard and she has more stuff to do with first level slots than their are slots to go around.

 

[billd91]

They may be a lot of opportunities to cast SB in play but there are other things to do with first level slots. I play an old character (40 years old) in a recently revived campaign. She is a ranger/wizard and she has more stuff to do with first level slots than their are slots to go around.

Having more credibly useful things to do with the slots than you have slots is a good thing - that means nothing is so dominant that it absorbs all the opportunity. But a relevant question would still be: Is it useful enough to always pursue for your spellbook or be part of a day's preparation?

 

[NotAYakk]

They may be a lot of opportunities to cast SB in play but there are other things to do with first level slots. I play an old character (40 years old) in a recently revived campaign. She is a ranger/wizard and she has more stuff to do with first level slots than their are slots to go around.

Half casting progression, and long adventuring days, can contribute to this.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Having more credibly useful things to do with the slots than you have slots is a good thing - that means nothing is so dominant that it absorbs all the opportunity. But a relevant question would still be: Is it useful enough to always pursue for your spellbook or be part of a day's preparation?

I think if i had access to it I would prepare it. At least for a while. I stopped prepping Counterspell recently. I am not so sure that I get as much use out it as some here are claiming. That is, it is not obviously the best thing to cast as a reaction. Given that my wizard half is a Bladesinger I would find more use out of Shield for my reaction.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Half casting progression, and long adventuring days, can contribute to this.

Long adventuring days especially.