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D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

Something in the fiction makes your PC lose (or gain) hit points
As a piece of analysis this is incoherent - the fiction doesn't cause tallies of numbers on bits of paper sitting on my kitchen table to change!

I've played D&D combats twice in the past 8 days. What actually happens is that players roll dice, apply modifiers, compare the resulting values to target numbers, determine hits or misses, on hits (or if there is damage on a miss) roll damage dice, and then compute damage totals that are subtracted from targets' hit point totals. That is a pretty complete description of the causal process, and it does not at any point require anyone to consult the shared fiction, nor to change the shared fiction except in the most generic fashion (ie a character who has lost hit points has in some sense been set back in the fight). In Baker's model, it is almost purely cubes-to-cubes (see steps 4 and 5 in Resolution System #1 in this blog post: anyway: 3 Resolution Systems).

the change in hit point tallies is a table-level reaction to (or tracking of) events in the fiction that have already occurred
In D&D combat there is no change in the shared imagining based on changing hit point totals.

I mean, someone might posit that in some abstract or purely notional sense the fiction must have changed because otherwise the Orc wouldn't be closer to death; but no one at the table actual knows what that change is, and the table is not required to imagine anything different because a hit point total changed.

That's part of the rationale of what I've called, upthread, the "simulationist reaction": in Rolemaster, for instance, if a character is stabbed by a sword or bitten by a dragon the rules tell us something that has to change in what we all imagine (eg the character is bleeding from their thigh, or has had muscles torn in their arm).
 

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I argued the same thing as you're saying here.
It misses the intent of the analogy, which is to point out that game as game may imply all its possible narratives (it doesn't matter if this set is bounded or well-defined, to get the notion). If it makes more sense, a game implies the contents of the set (plays). That's the job of the system.

A book implies one narrative. That's currently a great advantage: it can be dramatically richer.
 

As a piece of analysis this is incoherent - the fiction doesn't cause tallies of numbers on bits of paper sitting on my kitchen table to change!

I've played D&D combats twice in the past 8 days. What actually happens is that players roll dice, apply modifiers, compare the resulting values to target numbers, determine hits or misses, on hits (or if there is damage on a miss) roll damage dice, and then compute damage totals that are subtracted from targets' hit point totals. That is a pretty complete description of the causal process, and it does not at any point require anyone to consult the shared fiction, nor to change the shared fiction except in the most generic fashion (ie a character who has lost hit points has in some sense been set back in the fight). In Baker's model, it is almost purely cubes-to-cubes (see steps 4 and 5 in Resolution System #1 in this blog post: anyway: 3 Resolution Systems).

In D&D combat there is no change in the shared imagining based on changing hit point totals.

I mean, someone might posit that in some abstract or purely notional sense the fiction must have changed because otherwise the Orc wouldn't be closer to death; but no one at the table actual knows what that change is, and the table is not required to imagine anything different because a hit point total changed.

That's part of the rationale of what I've called, upthread, the "simulationist reaction": in Rolemaster, for instance, if a character is stabbed by a sword or bitten by a dragon the rules tell us something that has to change in what we all imagine (eg the character is bleeding from their thigh, or has had muscles torn in their arm).
Yet something has changed. There have been consequences. It's going to take one more hit to down the orc. The DM is intended in the basic pattern to narrate results.

If they are not doing that then they should be subject to accusations of doing it wrong that parallel those levelled at some play styles of story-now games. Or at least, they have brought the lack of fictional consequence on themselves by ignoring guidelines as to how to play.
 

I draw maps and leave blanks. I have an agenda. I name the folk of the realm and guide players to a world that contains elves and bards, and word demons. I sketch out fronts, dangers, enemies and dooms.

That seems like building a story to me. We then let play tell us more. We found an ominous stone in a stream last session: I'm not sure what it's connected with but I am looking forward to finding out.

[The Druid felt something was up and went looking. Sure enough, she found something. I have a hunch that it will foreshadow an enemy or danger, but we are not sure yet.]
The way this question is answered is the indicative part. There's a way that it's answered by people that have grokked the system and then by those that approach DW largely the same as 5e -- the GM is in control of story and the players ask questions to find out bits of that story, just with a generous helping of untethered and vague bits that can somewhat fit into "play to find out." The example here of just finding a mysterious stone, which you say is pretty much untethered at the moment and looking for what it is, is a prime example of something a 5e game would feature but a DW game shouldn't. Your parenthetical is a moment of play I don't recognize within DW -- the Druid went looking and found something that is just ominous but nothing else? What move did the Druid make? What was the result? If called on, what move did the GM make? Something had to be resolved here, but I don't see what!

One of the flags for me in these kinds of discussions is someone that says they run DW but that maintains a position that story is a 'flows from the GM' thing. This tells me any engagement with DW is where they're using some of the system (not all) to essentially mimic the play from D&D. This shows a misunderstanding of the fundamental conception of play that DW is based on. Part of the problem here is that DW isn't a great PbtA game to begin with (it's fine, but not great) and also that since it's intended to create the feel of a high fantasy D&D-esque genre but not run like one, it's easy to misconstrue what it's saying. You're not in bad company here. But, it appears that you have misapprehended how the game is supposed to work. This statement, in no way, casts an aspersions on how much fun or enjoyment you're having at the table, nor that you must play it in it's intended mode -- just that you shouldn't be using your experience with DW as an indicator for experience with it's intended mode of play.
 

Yet something has changed. There have been consequences. It's going to take one more hit to down the orc. The DM is intended in the basic pattern to narrate results.

If they are not doing that then they should be subject to accusations of doing it wrong that parallel those levelled at some play styles of story-now games. Or at least, they have brought the lack of fictional consequence on themselves by ignoring guidelines as to how to play.
What changed in the fiction? What was the fictional change to having 100 hitpoints a moment ago, but having 99 now?
 

I draw maps and leave blanks. I have an agenda. I name the folk of the realm and guide players to a world that contains elves and bards, and word demons. I sketch out fronts, dangers, enemies and dooms.

That seems like building a story to me.
As you describe it, it seems closer to an imaginary catalogue or bestiary or atlas.

Obviously there's little profit in quibbling over word-meanings - but Vincent Baker clearly says in the rules for DitV that the GM should prepare towns (which resemble your fronts etc) and shouldn't prepare stories; and says something very similar in the rules for Apocalypse World. So on the reasonable assumption that he's not confused or self-contradictory, there is a received usage of story in RPG design and RPGing practice that distinguishes prep of the sort you describe, and prep of a story that @Ovinomancer said oughtn't to be done when playing DW.

When I read a book, if I reread it I know what is going to happen. The dramatic-narrative is the same because books are linear and non-dynamic. Chess is non-dramatic, but it implies all its narratives.
game as game may imply all its possible narratives (it doesn't matter if this set is bounded or well-defined, to get the notion). If it makes more sense, a game implies the contents of the set (plays). That's the job of the system.

A book implies one narrative. That's currently a great advantage: it can be dramatically richer.
For the reasons I posted upthread, I don't think a RPG implies all its possible narratives, unless that is meant in what seems to me the completely trivial sense of whatever the gameplay, it will be possible to describe it in retrospect.

Consider even a rather "simple" RPG, like T&T. There are relatively few constraints on how a GM might draw up a dungeon level for a delve; and not that many more constraints on the actions that the players might declare for their PC delvers once play starts.

So T&T doesn't imply all the possible narratives that will arise from playing T&T. And even a particular dungeon map and key drawn up for use with T&T doesn't imply them. Even if we add the PC sheets to the "game as game" we still don't get any such implication.

If we make the constraints on what counts as a narrative stricter - eg it must have the conventional form of a story -
then T&T ceases to be a useful example because it doesn't necessarily imply any narratives in that sense. But the same points made in relation to it can be reiterated in relation to, say, Prince Valiant: a Prince Valiant episode and a set of Prince Valiant characters don't imply all possible narratives in any interesting sense that I can see.

To me, this open-endedness that results from the fact that the only constraint on action declaration is fictional position seems fairly fundamental to RPGing.

When we look at dramatic-story-focused games, are we trying to force something that is great in another medium, into a medium that has different strengths?
Is the question meant to be rhetorical?

The reason for playing a game like Burning Wheel isn't to produce a story that is, qua story, on a par with (say) LotR. At least for my part, it's to participate in the experience of a dramatic story. There are features of RPGing that are pretty crucial to this - the "avatar inhabitation" of the player participant, for instance; and for the GM participant, the lack of control over what the protagonist will choose to do in response to tension or crisis.

The Lumpley Principle defines system as "the means by which the group agrees to imagined events during play." And this is not wrong: it leads to useful outcomes and can be taken to match the cloud-players-cues diagram.

As a designer, I see it as giving system too passive a voice. We might rank systems for degree of success in leading to agreement, but we can't tell why [how successfully] BB is murder mavens versus Lovecraft or Dogs were Mormon gunslingers. We can't judge systems using it for success in their creative purpose

<snip>

My desired complementary principle would say something about that. Perhaps defining system as - "the means by which the group is driven to choose and go on choosing acts that match the distinctive and worthwhile themes of this game, over all other games."
Yet something has changed. There have been consequences. It's going to take one more hit to down the orc. The DM is intended in the basic pattern to narrate results.

If they are not doing that then they should be subject to accusations of doing it wrong that parallel those levelled at some play styles of story-now games. Or at least, they have brought the lack of fictional consequence on themselves by ignoring guidelines as to how to play.
Perhaps I've misunderstood, but what you're talking about here - your complementary principle, and your comment about what the DM is supposed to do - seem to me to be extensively discussed by (among others) Vincent Baker and Ron Edwards.

For instance, the clouds-and-cubes blog I linked to just upthread is Baker's use of the model to critique his own game - In A Wicked Age - for having insufficient rightward facing arrows. That is to say, the rules/procedures do not reference the fiction in generating changes to the "gamestate". One thing he is proud of in DitV is that its rules require having reference to the fiction in order to be applied (see steps 3, 4 and 6 in Resolution System #2) - and this is also what makes the themes of the game become salient in play, because those, or things that directly implicate them, are the bits of fiction that must be referenced.

The D&D DM adjudicating the D&D combat can, if they choose, add leftward-pointing arrows about what happens in the fiction with each change to the hit point tallies. But this will be purely epiphenomenal and optional - the rules of the game don't state that it should be done, and even if they did participants would get slack about it because that changed fiction would never give rise to rightward arrows.

A similar thing can happen in Burning Wheel in a Duel of Wits - this is one reason why years ago I posted that D&D 4e skill challenges actually have a strength in this respect, because you can't avoid rightward pointing arrows in the latter process. (There are approaches to BW that can maintain the rightward arrows in the DoW: the GM can follow the rule declare actions for NPCs based on the intersection of their Beliefs and Instincts with the current state of the fiction; an optional rule can be adopted which gives a player an advantage die if declaring an action that conforms to or expresses a Belief, Instinct or trait.)

When considering the implications of Baker's ideas for design, I think Apocalypse World is the best case study. So when we look at AW we can see which sorts of fiction demands what sorts of moves. Mostly if a player says that their PC does something-or-other than the GM makes a soft move, or a hard move if handed a golden opportunity. This is the back-and-forth conversation of RPGing, but with the pressure/tension generally rising (because of the soft moves) and with a certain sort of colour/flavour to those moves (because of GM-side principles such as Barf forth apocalyptica and Put your bloody fingerprints on everything). But certain sorts of action declarations trigger player-side moves - Acting Under Fire, trying to Seize Something by Force, etc - and then cues are consulted (ie dice are thrown) and the results set constraints on who is allowed to say what. The choice of what fiction triggers those player side moves helps determine the success of the game in making the intended thematic content central. (It doesn't solely determine it. The constraints that result from various dice throws also matter to this. The fact that we throw dice is also significant, because it introduces tension in a manner that doesn't depend on consensus/conversation, and so is more vicseral, and that allows for climax one way or the other rather than just rising action.)

It's a sign of weak RPG design that, for instance, it follows tradition in making the tension and play of the game reach a crescendo when engaging in fighting, or worrying about architecture and inventory - these are the things classic D&D focused on - even though fighting and architecture and inventory are of little or no thematic significance. 2nd ed AD&D is a poster child for this design problem.

But I don't see anything in Baker's or Edwards' frameworks that makes it hard to talk about these aspects of RPG design. By getting us to think about how fiction, cues, and rules interrelate I think they give us the vital tools to do so.
 

The way this question is answered is the indicative part. There's a way that it's answered by people that have grokked the system and then by those that approach DW largely the same as 5e -- the GM is in control of story and the players ask questions to find out bits of that story, just with a generous helping of untethered and vague bits that can somewhat fit into "play to find out." The example here of just finding a mysterious stone, which you say is pretty much untethered at the moment and looking for what it is, is a prime example of something a 5e game would feature but a DW game shouldn't. Your parenthetical is a moment of play I don't recognize within DW -- the Druid went looking and found something that is just ominous but nothing else? What move did the Druid make? What was the result? If called on, what move did the GM make? Something had to be resolved here, but I don't see what!
She was aware that something was letting strange creatures into the forest, and she had a message inviting her to visit an old friend.

She decided that the friend was on another island (the setting is an archipelago, which leaves a lot of evocative blank spaces.) But first she wanted to understand what was up: what wasn't in its right place. I took this as DR and on her 8 introduced an ominous stone. We're all fans of EarthSea so the possible implications drew on shared themes.

She decided to haul it out of the river and that it had some markings. I went with that - no roll - because it suited my agenda. That's where we left off. We'll resume today or tomorrow.

One of the flags for me in these kinds of discussions is someone that says they run DW but that maintains a position that story is a 'flows from the GM' thing.
The fact is, my style for D&D just isn't that far from my style for DW. We world immersionists have had to find our own path.

What I largely like to own as DM are cohering, overarching themes, and I love mapping imaginary places. The archipelago has several seas and two main towns... that's about all I currently know about it. The overarching theme is "the fraying wall" (that separates planes.) I don't know yet why the wall or walls are fraying, but I have decided that if they fray completely things are going to change dramatically, affecting the whole archipelago.

This tells me any engagement with DW is where they're using some of the system (not all) to essentially mimic the play from D&D. This shows a misunderstanding of the fundamental conception of play that DW is based on. Part of the problem here is that DW isn't a great PbtA game to begin with (it's fine, but not great) and also that since it's intended to create the feel of a high fantasy D&D-esque genre but not run like one, it's easy to misconstrue what it's saying.
I get the feeling from my own and others' play that what you say here is very true. But then, I suspect a totally pure style is either a chimera, or just not that important.

You're not in bad company here. But, it appears that you have misapprehended how the game is supposed to work. This statement, in no way, casts an aspersions on how much fun or enjoyment you're having at the table, nor that you must play it in it's intended mode -- just that you shouldn't be using your experience with DW as an indicator for experience with it's intended mode of play.
Reflecting, I suspect we traverse modes. But say; if one cannot use one's experience of the games in question, or video of sessions run by the designers, or the testimony of third parties, then it would seem one must be mute, seeing as they lie in an obscure country, seen through glass, darkly.
 

What changed in the fiction? What was the fictional change to having 100 hitpoints a moment ago, but having 99 now?
The orc had 15 hit points. It reels bloodied from your slashing longsword's 8 damage. Another such will surely fell it. It looks left and right, to check if its allies are holding.

What orc has 100 hit points, really. But how about a stone giant. The giant had 126 hit points. Your slash is a doughty one, but seriously, it's so massive this is barely a scratch. It's going to step forward and... are you sure this is a fight you want to take?
 

The sole concession I am seeking is that even simple games can yield a narrative.
Nobody is disagreeing that RP by itself is the same as an RPG. RPGs bring a particular type of process and particular elements (varying by game) to the process of story telling and role play.

<snip>

I don't believe games ARE a form of narrative. I believe they MAY participate in the characteristics of narratives, in which case they are probably 'narrative games', though perhaps not all such are actually RPGs (I can't cite an example, but maybe other people can of a narrative non-RPing game, but I think they probably exist, and certainly COULD exist).

<snip>

when we call them 'games' we are also constraining ourselves to a specific type of activity, game-playing. This implies some sort of reasonably formalized set of rules understood in common by the participants and which influence the process of play, which in this case definitionally produces a narrative. So we have the players, who play, the rules which influence the process, possibly cues, and then the fiction and narrative, which is the unrolling of fiction in the course of play. I would personally also state that 'story' might be considered a more precise definition that simply 'narrative', which could be construed to be pretty much any description of things which happened. A story needs specific structures, protagonists, conflict, etc. to produce drama. So, perhaps we might classify D&D as 'narrative', but not 'dramatic', as it has nothing to say rules or cue wise about drama particularly.
We might say that, for any event that occurs, there is a corresponding true description of it. Now this principle can break down if the event is so complex it can't be described using the resources of human language; or if it is so novel that there is not the adequate vocabulary. But RPGing, and game play generally, I think is unlikely to cause this sort of break down. Therefore we might say that, for any game that is played, there is a corresponding description of the play. We can call that description a narrative - an account of the events of the play of the game.

But that does not make the game a "narrative game". A "narrative game", at least as I think would typically be meant - my daughter calls them "imagination games" - involves as part of the process of play the creation of a shared fiction. This is not just the description of the play itself.

The difference manifests itself in various typical ways - the narrative of a chess game refers only to actual things (pieces, players, etc), whereas the fiction of an imagination game refers to imaginary things like dragons, superheroes etc. But we don't need to point to those typical differences to draw the distinction in general between games as amenable to description of their play and games whose play itself includes generating descriptions. There are possible corner cases - Over the Edge contemplates self-referentiality comparable to that found in films like Adaptation and Pain and Glory, but I don't think these break down the distinction, as opposed to create some puzzles over particular semantic contents.

Not all narrative/imagination games are RPGs. My daughter's imagination games involve participants adopting first-person "avatars" within the imagined setting and situation, and performing actions from that perspective - but they do not have the formalised or even semi-formalised rules of a RPG, and so all changes to the shared fiction are purely consensual. In other words, there is no system that is separate from "social contract".

A game that I can recommend is A Penny for My Thoughts. It involves a type of collaborative story-telling via a rules-structured process - so it has a system. (Whereas my example above, of the JRRT/Lewis storytelling game, relied on coin tosses to allocate authority, A Penny for My Thoughts uses a mixture of round robin and guided player choice.) But it is not a RPG, because participants do not declare actions for avatars from a "first person"/"inhabitation" perspective. Rather, each participant is a person within the fiction, whose decisions gradually build up the full conception of the shared fiction, including elements of rising action and climax (in the game, this is flavoured as a particular form of memory recovery by amnesiacs).

The challenge in "narrativist"/"story now" RPG design is to combine the first-person action-declaration aspect of RPGing with the generation of a robustly structured dramatic narrative that is found in a game like A Penny for My Thoughts. In my earlier post not far upthread I said a bit about how I think a game like Apocalypse World meets this challenge, through the way its system establishes who gets to add what content when, and under what constraints, with all of that correlating in various ways to player-participant action declarations.
 

The orc had 15 hit points. It reels bloodied from your slashing longsword's 8 damage. Another such will surely fell it. It looks left and right, to check if its allies are holding.
This is an example of a purely epiphenomenal leftward-pointing arrow. Nothing in the gameplay follows from the Orc reeling bloodied - contrast, eg, Baker's example of taking the higher ground (fiction/cloud) which then leads to a +2 to hit (cues/boxes).

All the gameplay work is done by the change to the hit point tally - the boxes-to-boxes arrow that Baker draws in his blog.
 

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