D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[AbdulAlhazred]

Baker thought my character attacks yours counted, so I don't see how wrestling or shoving gets excluded?


I agree. Baker felt it counted but couldn't figures on a grid get to the same place?


Yup. I find the line fuzzy. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't fuzzy, although obviously one might like to find some consistent test

Yeah, we can slice and dice it analytically. IN PLAY the distinctions can be less precisely defined and its not like we need to consult a diagram to tell us which box is arrowing where, though it is certainly a handy way for a game designer to think about it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The rules don't mention Hold at all for DR. They say ask 3 questions or ask 1. And forward +1. Nothing in the text or examples suggests a less useful answer to each question, just fewer questions.

If my DM calls are going to be singled out and nitpicked in a way that undermines my input to an ongoing discussion, and you are jumping in on that, you're going to need to cite chapter and verse.

I'm going to scan a streamed session to see how the designers do it.

AFAIK DW has only one 'edition', though maybe the printed version is phrased a bit differently? In the PDF the player gets to ask either 3 or 1 question, but gets +1 Forward when acting on the answer(s). I don't think the wording makes a difference in the outcome anyway. Either way you get the same overall EFFECT (+1 Forward) but less information on a 7-9, so the forward is applicable in less places.

 

[Manbearcat]

The rules don't mention Hold at all for DR. They say ask 3 questions or ask 1. And forward +1. Nothing in the text or examples suggests a less useful answer to each question, just fewer questions.

If my DM calls are going to be singled out and nitpicked in a way that undermines my input to an ongoing discussion, and you are jumping in on that, you're going to need to cite chapter and verse.

I'm going to scan a streamed session to see how the designers do it.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying or I'm not saying it well. We're getting lost in the weeds here.

Hold is basically the same thing as "you have 1 point of currency to spend on a thing > pick it." Shapeshifting gives you Hold and lets you pick forms and express that. Defend gives you a suite of options to spend Hold on. There are moves like this all over the landscape of Dungeon World.

Discern Realities is just like this. The 3 questions (and their +1 forward) are basically "Hold." They're a limited currency to spend to get an effect. On a 10+ you get 3. On a 7-9, you get 1. This format of "reduced effect from 3 to 1 when going from 10+ to 7-9" is the same on a large swathe of moves (DR, Defend, SS, among others). Reduced Effect is the complication.

 

[clearstream]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying or I'm not saying it well. We're getting lost in the weeds here.

Hold is basically the same thing as "you have 1 point of currency to spend on a thing > pick it." Shapeshifting gives you Hold and lets you pick forms and express that. Defend gives you a suite of options to spend Hold on. There are moves like this all over the landscape of Dungeon World.

Discern Realities is just like this. The 3 questions (and their +1 forward) are basically "Hold." They're a limited currency to spend to get an effect. On a 10+ you get 3. On a 7-9, you get 1. This format of "reduced effect from 3 to 1 when going from 10+ to 7-9" is the same on a large swathe of moves (DR, Defend, SS, among others). Reduced Effect is the complication.

Having literally just watched AK DM DR along lines extremely close to what I did, I can only say that while it may well be that the underlying structure relates to Hold, that is not the move's RAI.

Hold isn't the same as Forward. The former is a currency, the latter a bonus.

The three questions don't each get +1 forward. One roll you make for a move when acting on the answers gets +1.

[Which makes it four Hold, were we paying for the effects. I find your model unnecessary and puzzling. Just ask 3 or 1 questions. That's literally how it works.]

 

[clearstream]

Having literally just watched AK DM DR along lines extremely close to what I did, I can only say that while it may well be that the underlying structure relates to Hold, that is not the move's RAI.

Hold isn't the same as Forward. The former is a currency, the latter a bonus.

The three questions don't each get +1 forward. One roll you make for a move when acting on the answers gets +1.

[Which makes it four Hold, were we paying for the effects. I find your model unnecessary and puzzling. Just ask 3 or 1 questions. That's literally how it works.]

@Manbearcat Sorry to be so grouchy about this, but you've jumped into this thread for apparently the sole purpose of joining the nit-picking of my DMing of one move in DW. If you feel that's a good use of your time, great, but I will hold your explanation 100% to account for accuracy.

 

[Manbearcat]

Having literally just watched AK DM DR along lines extremely close to what I did, I can only say that while it may well be that the underlying structure relates to Hold, that is not the move's RAI.

Hold isn't the same as Forward. The former is a currency, the latter a bonus.

The three questions don't each get +1 forward. One roll you make for a move when acting on the answers gets +1.

First off, I'm not nitpicking your GMing. I'm trying to help all of you guys' conversation here with some course-correction/clarity.

Second, you're misconstruing what I'm saying for some reason that is unknown to me. I'm not comparing/contrasting "Gain Hold" to "Take +1 Forward" to "Choose between x, y, z." I'm talking about limited effect is a complication that is already encoded in several 7-9 moves within Dungeon World, Discern Realities being one of those moves...ergo, making a soft move on top of that encoded limited effect is administering 2 * soft moves (ergo not correct GMing). I'm going to try again.

Forget the concept of Hold. Here is Discern Realities:

DW page 66

Discern Realities
When you closely study a situation or person, roll+Wis. ✴On a 10+, ask the GM 3 questions from the list below. ✴On a 7–9, ask 1.
Either way, take +1 forward when acting on the answers.
•
What happened here recently?
•
What is about to happen?
•
What should I be on the lookout for?
•
What here is useful or valuable to me?
•
Who’s really in control here?
•
What here is not what it appears to be?

To discern realities you must closely observe your target. That usually means interacting with it or watching someone else do the same. You can’t just stick your head in the doorway and discern realities about a room. You’re not merely scanning for clues—you have to look under and around things, tap the walls, and check for weird dust patterns on the bookshelves. That sort of thing.

Discerning realities isn’t just about noticing a detail, it’s about figuring out the bigger picture. The GM always describes what the player characters experience honestly, so during a fight the GM will say that the kobold mage stays at the other end of the hall. Discerning realities could reveal the reason behind that: the kobold’s motions reveal that he’s actually pulling energy from the room behind him, he can’t come any closer.

Just like spout lore, the answers you get are always honest ones.

Here is Defend

Dungeon World p 62

Defend
When you stand in defense of a person, item, or location under attack, roll+Con. ✴On a 10+, hold 3. ✴On a 7–9, hold 1. As long as you stand in defense, when you or the thing you defend is attacked you may spend hold, 1 for 1, to choose an option:
•
Redirect an attack from the thing you defend to yourself
•
Halve the attack’s effect or damage
•
Open up the attacker to an ally giving that ally +1 forward against the attacker
•
Deal damage to the attacker equal to your level

Defending something means standing nearby and focusing on preventing attacks against that thing or stopping anyone from getting near it. When you’re no longer nearby or you stop devoting your attention to incoming attacks then you lose any hold you might have had.
You can only spend hold when someone makes an attack on you or the thing you’re defending. The choices you can make depend on the attacker and the type of attack. In particular, you can’t deal damage to an attacker who you can’t reach with your weapon.

An attack is any action you can interfere with that has harmful effects. Swords and arrows are attacks, of course, but so are spells, grabs, and charges.

Hopefully, it is clear that on a 10+ you get 3. On a 7-9, you get 1. That going from 3 to 1 (reduced effect) is the complication.

Dungeon World basic moves and playbooks have this throughout the game. Rendering a second complication is not appropriate.

Now look at Volley

DW pg 58

Volley
When you take aim and shoot at an enemy at range, roll+Dex. ✴On a 10+, you have a clear shot—deal your damage. ✴On a 7–9, choose one (whichever you choose you deal your damage):
•
You have to move to get the shot placing you in danger as described by the GM
•
You have to take what you can get: -1d6 damage
•
You have to take several shots, reducing your ammo by one

Volley covers the entire act of drawing, aiming, and firing a ranged weapon or throwing a thrown weapon. The advantage to using a ranged weapon over melee is that the attacker is less likely to be attacked back. Of course they do have to worry about ammunition and getting a clear shot though.

On a 7-9, the player chooses between the following complications:

* Movement on the battlefield resulting in danger.

* Reduced Effect.

* Ammo - 1.


I've been trying to illustrate how a GM soft move on a 7-9 DR result is akin to saying to the player who gets a 7-9 on Volley, "alright, you have to take what you can get (-1d6 damage = reduced effect) but you also need to choose how this shot further complicates your life; -1 Ammo or Danger?"

The already encoded in the move complication for a 7-9 DR is 1 question instead of 3. The complication on a 7-9 Defend is only 1 of those 4 embedded results instead of 3. You're not doing something else (a soft move) on top of that already reduced effect (reduced effect being the complication); your volley is reduced -1d6 in effectiveness AND you suffer a danger you have to resolve...you can only redirect the attack from your charge to yourself so take this damage/effect AND I'm going to make an additional soft move against you.


I don't know how I can be more clear. I was trying to be courteous and helpful (as I've run PBtA games generally and DW specifically for probably nearing 1500 hours at this point) to you guys' ongoing conversation. I've spent waaaaaaaaaay more time than I intended in the process. If this doesn't help clarify then....ok. But my contribution to the conversation is over.

EDIT - @clearstream I didn't jump in to nit-pick. I jumped in to help you guys as this was brought to my attention. This is friendly help...do with it as you will That is all. Again, you guys carry on. My involvement is over.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Having literally just watched AK DM DR along lines extremely close to what I did, I can only say that while it may well be that the underlying structure relates to Hold, that is not the move's RAI.

Hold isn't the same as Forward. The former is a currency, the latter a bonus.

The three questions don't each get +1 forward. One roll you make for a move when acting on the answers gets +1.

[Which makes it four Hold, were we paying for the effects. I find your model unnecessary and puzzling. Just ask 3 or 1 questions. That's literally how it works.]

I suspect this is why the PDF version at least doesn't bother to call it 'hold'. If you look at the Defend move you can see a place where Hold makes great sense, the character can expend it to make beneficial stuff happen. In the case where it will all happen at once it isn't necessary to call it that, as with DR. However it all works the same either way.

Edit: More or less Ninjaed by MBC.

 

[Lanefan]

Do you mean solely the physical act of writing down, and exclude the ongoing consequences of the new hit point total?

Yes, as that seemed to be what was being referred to: the (physical) act of tracking hit point totals.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it isn't always THAT profitable to talk a lot about where a move is or is not to be evoked from the GM, because in essence the GM can make a move whenever they feel like, within reason. Certainly once the player is done with her DR question(s) she's going to want to start to act on the results, and whatever that action is, it will in due course evoke another move, often quite directly. A move might even follow simply because the players can't quite decide what approach to take, and the GM should drop a move on the party in that situation, albeit it may be a fairly gentle one in some cases. This is actually a bit like the old technique where the PCs start arguing about left or right in D&D and the DM rolls a wandering monster check, usually with great fanfare... lol.

 

[Ovinomancer]

First off, I'm not nitpicking your GMing. I'm trying to help all of you guys' conversation here with some course-correction/clarity.

Second, you're misconstruing what I'm saying for some reason that is unknown to me. I'm not comparing/contrasting "Gain Hold" to "Take +1 Forward" to "Choose between x, y, z." I'm talking about limited effect is a complication that is already encoded in several 7-9 moves within Dungeon World, Discern Realities being one of those moves...ergo, making a soft move on top of that encoded limited effect is administering 2 * soft moves (ergo not correct GMing). I'm going to try again.



Here is Defend



Hopefully, it is clear that on a 10+ you get 3. On a 7-9, you get 1. That going from 3 to 1 (reduced effect) is the complication.

Dungeon World basic moves and playbooks have this throughout the game. Rendering a second complication is not appropriate.

Now look at Volley



On a 7-9, the player chooses between the following complications:

* Movement on the battlefield resulting in danger.

* Reduced Effect.

* Ammo - 1.


I've been trying to illustrate how a GM soft move on a 7-9 DR result is akin to saying to the player who gets a 7-9 on Volley, "alright, you have to take what you can get (-1d6 damage = reduced effect) but you also need to choose how this shot further complicates your life; -1 Ammo or Danger?"

The already encoded in the move complication for a 7-9 DR is 1 question instead of 3. The complication on a 7-9 Defend is only 1 of those 4 embedded results instead of 3. You're not doing something else (a soft move) on top of that already reduced effect (reduced effect being the complication); your volley is reduced -1d6 in effectiveness AND you suffer a danger you have to resolve...you can only redirect the attack from your charge to yourself so take this damage/effect AND I'm going to make an additional soft move against you.


I don't know how I can be more clear. I was trying to be courteous and helpful (as I've run PBtA games generally and DW specifically for probably nearing 1500 hours at this point) to you guys' ongoing conversation. I've spent waaaaaaaaaay more time than I intended in the process. If this doesn't help clarify then....ok. But my contribution to the conversation is over.

EDIT - @clearstream I didn't jump in to nit-pick. I jumped in to help you guys as this was brought to my attention. This is friendly help...do with it as you will That is all. Again, you guys carry on. My involvement is over.

It's probably because you aren't in the room.