D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Micah Sweet]

What’s next for what? Next for close consideration for thoughtful, deliberate decisions about how to use them in our games? Let’s not stop, please!

Most of the options discussed involved close consideration for thoughtful, deliberate decisions about why to remove them from our games. And the option that allowed for them required a degree of world-building WotC will never bother with.

 

[Umbran]

Strange how the anecdotal aspect you criticize happened to one of my friend for the exact same reasons in his travel.

I find your focus on the people currently living in India misplaced.

Folks who live in India, constantly among a majority who share their cultural background, may not feel particularly put upon by appropriation. But, they are in a majority in the middle of a population of a billion people - they are fairly secure. When you visit them in India, they YOU the minority.

When you come to these shores, that's flipped - the power dynamic is different, and the considerations should therefore be different.

In addition, take one country - India. That's one group, and maybe they don't currently feel they have a problem with appropriation. Let us, for this paragraph, take that to be correct. So, now we have one minority that doesn't have an issue, but others that do have issues. We should, what, not think so much about how we handle the one as compared to the others? "Okay, the African, Native American, and South American cultures all deserve this level of respect and attention, but folks from the Indian sub-continent don't deserve the respect?

Seems to me they all deserve the same sort of respect, whether they start out cheesed off at us or not.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh no! Future RPGs will be more thought out and not just shotgun any and everything at the wall with zero thought!

First they came for racist, colonial stereotypes, then they came for the monsters weirdly orphaned from their culture due to exoticism. Then there was no one left when they came for other examples of ignorance or malice.

It's not a Slippery Slope like you claimed when the slope is real and happening.

 

[Irlo]

So you admit that the slope is slippery and this will continue? People were yelling slippery slope to shout down those who said during the orc discussions that this would continue to other monsters. Perhaps people should stop trying to shout people down with cries of Slippery Slope.

What THIS are you talking about that would continue? It’s not a rhetorical question. What do you think is happening here?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh no! Future RPGs will be more thought out and not just shotgun any and everything at the wall with zero thought!

First they came for racist, colonial stereotypes, then they came for the monsters weirdly orphaned from their culture due to exoticism. Then there was no one left when they came for other examples of ignorance or malice.

This is both hyperbole and strawmannirg. The issue with most of these things is there is serious, and legitimate, disagreement over whether any of these elements constitute something as bad as racism, or if they are colonialist propaganda. We've had those discussions endlessly, so I don't think there is a need to rehash them here. But people aren't advocating for colonialism, malice, racism, or any other bad moral thing you want to chuck their way. They are seeing that this might be an over-reaction, perhaps even becoming a bit of a moral panic, and that we are in the process of removing things that add flavor, conflict, and enjoyment to the game (and that a lot of this is removing creativity as well because it is a narrowing of what is creatively permissible: seriously you need a masters degree, or must have been invested in multiple hundred-page threads, at this point to even know where the lines are).

 

[Maxperson]

Wtf do you think this thread is about? It's a discussion. Yes, we are/have been discussing Orcs, Goblinoids, Drow, Genies, Rakshasa, and other examples on this site recently. The point is to discuss them. If you don't think the discussion is important, don't participate.

There is no slope, because I never said what should be done in the OP. The OP explicitly stated that I don't know the answer and wanted to have a thread to discuss it.

Can we please stop threadcrapping and just discuss the topic? Because, like I said in the OP, if you don't like the topic, no one is forcing you to post. Let others discuss it and just leave it alone.

My last few interactions with you have gone very poorly, which is why I haven't responded to any of your posts in the last month or so. I want no further interaction with you and don't want you to respond to any of my posts. Blocking is not an option for me since I am very opposed to the idea.

 

[Irlo]

Most of the options discussed involved close consideration for thoughtful, deliberate decisions about why to remove them from our games. And the option that allowed for them required a degree of world-building WotC will never bother with.

This thread has nothing to do with WotC. Nothing proposed or questioned by the OP has any bearing on any publication.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Most of the options discussed involved close consideration for thoughtful, deliberate decisions about why to remove them from our games. And the option that allowed for them required a degree of world-building WotC will never bother with.

Those were the options that I thought of. I never claimed that it was a comprehensive/definitive list and asked for other suggestions. Seriously, can you guys stop threadcrapping like this? The thread is not about any of the things that you seem to claim it's about.

And, no, only one was about removing them, and it was only from worlds that don't already have those fantasy-counterpart cultures (I mentioned how they would still remain in Al-Qadim, for example). The other was about changing them so they could have different cultures attached to them in any given setting, and another was about adding in those fantasy counterpart cultures to the world to justify them having that cultural style.

Can you at least properly represent my posts if you're going to refer to them? Is that too much to ask? (P.S. I never mentioned WotC. This thread was not about convincing anyone of any sort of change to how the official settings are presented. It was more of a thought experiment of which would be better from a cultural standpoint.)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Players don't really care about listening to a massive cultural and political history of a setting while at the gaming table.

Perhaps yours don't. My game's Bard laps this stuff up like nectar, and the Druid is keen on learning everything he can about other lands so he can teach the next generation.

I do feel awkward launching into spiels at times but the players have repeatedly thanked me for them so I can only assume it's what they want. I try to spice it up or space it out though. More "seven two-minute spiels" than "one ten-minute TED talk" if I can pull it off.

It might be a single point, actually, it's several from multiple encounters in multiple countries (and actually confirmed by at least another poster), so it's still way better than ZERO data, just feelings.

Unless and until you can do statistics with it, it's literally no different from feelings as far as "data," the word referring to analyzable collections of information, is concerned. Also? You don't get to turn "the experiences I, Lyxen, have had" into seven data points just because you've had seven of them or whatever. They're all one data point, because they all have a major, result-affecting element in common: That you yourself had the experience.

Otherwise, we'd have to accept that a single person who claimed to have been visited by aliens a thousand times was a reliable data set with tons of analyzable information, which (I sincerely hope) you agree is not sound practice when it comes to data collection.

Everything stays in its own box. Everyone is happy.

Don't be so melodramatic. Is it really that hard to say, "hey, let's have a fantasy Athens, I can lean on Theros for that and do a little research on Greek food, art, and history"? You come across as more than a bit petulant here. "Well FINE if the stuff I like is wrong, BURN IT ALL DOWN."

It really doesn't need such doomsaying and hand-wringing, and resorting to melodrama does not actually accomplish anything. Like...do you genuinely think that this response will make AcererakTriple6 open up to your position? That you'll actually persuade anyone at all by speaking this way, rather than just earning brownie points with people who already agree with you?

So you admit that the slope is slippery and this will continue? People were yelling slippery slope to shout down those who said during the orc discussions that this would continue to other monsters. Perhaps people should stop trying to shout people down with cries of Slippery Slope.

Oh come off it. Really, Max? "We should do things more thoughtfully" is a slippery slope now? Next you'll be saying that "we should teach children statistics so they can't be as easily deceived by misleading charts and numbers" is a slippery slope to turning everyone into soulless robots.

 

[Umbran]

So you admit that the slope is slippery and this will continue?

Mod Note:
I think you should give yourself a break from all such threads, as you don't seem to engage with them constructively. I will give you a boost, by removing you from this discussion. Hopefully, you will be able to better curate your own participation on these topics going forward.

Anyone else need assistance in curating their discussion experience?