D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

This is an interesting topic. I'll preface by saying that I would not advocate for removing these creatures from the game. I am currently playing a genie warlock, so that would be quite hypocritical of me. But, per the request of the OP, just want to try to add to the discussion. Also forgive me if what I say below is well known.

Here is the 5e Djinn:
Djinn5E.PNG.png


I would say that this depiction is an iteration in the more long standing orientalist tradition in art, literature, and culture. To crudely summarize one of the insights of Edward Said's Orientalism (1978), knowledge=power. In the 19th century (and earlier), European powers (he mainly analyzes the French, and to a lesser extent the British) developed an idiom for characterizing the "East," as a place that exotic, mysterious, and sensual but also autocratic, barbarous and unchanging. This had little to do with the actual complex reality of those cultures, but instead was a fantasy for European audiences, one used in part to motivate and justify colonialism.

The 1001 Nights played no small part in defining qualities of the "East" for generations of European children. Various translators took considerable liberty in adapting the stories and adding in stories, including famously Antoine Galland's inclusion of Aladdin and the Magic Lamp.

galland m arabian B20111 96.jpg


I would even suggest that the 1001 Nights--as a product of European orientalism--was foundational for the fantasy genre. It was certainly a childhood favorite of innumerable Western authors (including, of course, the Brontes, rpg-players avant la lettre).

This is where it gets tricky for all of us interested in fantasy gaming. The harm, arguably, of orientalism-as-fantasy is that it was taken as reality. Historically, for many in the West, the Eastern woman was a figure like Scherezade, ruled by a despotic tyrant and in need of saving (i.e. colonial intervention). Wouldn't it be possible to take the fantastical elements and treat them as fantasy instead of as reality (especially as filtered through the grab-bag kitsch aesthetic that is dnd)? Perhaps in the same way we include a fantasy feudalism in our games without denying that the reality of medieval feudalism was much harsher and exploitative than the gloss that exists in our games?

Perhaps, but it's also the case that many facets of orientalism--the East as a place of irrational violence in need of saving--still motivate contemporary politics and culture, and to disastrous effect. So you can put a Djinn in your game of course, but it might be a worthwhile exercise to query the cultural baggage that you also might be (inadvertently ) including as you do so. It's also worthwhile to be self-reflexive about why you find these tropes and figures so exciting.

ps.
fwiw, a couple products that get it wrong
Hot Springs Island: the main antagonist is a slave-owning, resource-mining efreet with a "harem" and heavily implied sexual violence
Yoon Suin: a setting inspired by south Asia, in which the third paragraph of the text reads as follows:

First, the inhabitants. It never fails to impress a visitor to the Yellow City that its citizens are by turns the wealthiest, most refined, and most educated people in all the world, yet at the same time capable of the most malicious cruelties and licentious depravities. Like all those whose societies are ancient and rich, they are also cynical and filled with ennui. The most singular feature of their life, which strikes any visitor the moment he arrives, is their strict hierarchical stratification, which all inhabitants obey without question.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Don't assume that they are as close-minded and bigotted as you are. They are not, thankfully so.
You’re on your 4th warning in two months, three of which are for insulting other members. Please review the rules on civility and do not post again in this thread.
 


It would also be nice to be able to base a monster on a depiction in a TV show and not get jumped on for cultural appropriation.

I mean, it's still cultural appropriation, it's just taking it from a second-hand source. And cultural appropriation isn't always bad, but a lot of early stuff from D&D is not exactly great, either.

If the designer actually wants that, and if they can actually afford to change it that late in the game. A lot of the online criticisms I think are misguided or innacurate, but gain momentum and weight because of the nature of platforms like twitter. I also think it isn't good when people want a book but it doesn't get made because someone online points out things they don't like.

What was misguided about the criticisms? I mean, I've seen a lot of critiques of art when it comes to minorities. I generally think they are on-point for what they are. But I think this is way overblown compared to the reverse: the D&D fandom coming down on minority fans for expressing their problems with D&D.

Sometimes people are pointing out things the designer cares about and wants to remove. Sometimes the designer feels they have to remove even if they don't want to. I don't have an issue if they are in agreement with the observation and do it. I have more of an issue when it starts to become the fanbase effectively editing the product (or worse people who aren't even fans of the product shaping its content). I think this isn't limited to this discussion either. This is a problem for all sorts of things (even mechanics), where you can have a too many cooks spoil the broth effect, or every rough edge gets whittled down until it is palatable to everyone, but lacking real flavor).

I mean, this is the nature of the market. I'd be more interested in what they were specifically critiquing more than anything, because I think this is one of those things where context matters and I'm guessing that some creators may not be as familiar with some cultures as they think. Again, being afraid of critiques is much different than being harassed, and none of this really comes close to "propaganda".

And there is a grain of truth to this point. but my problem is it gets very exaggerated, and we also are reductive. We put people into blocks of identity and I don't think that tells the whole story of who a person is. Nor is it a particularly useful measure because it is really hard to determine who speaks for said minority group. Further, prioritizing this really seems to have a negative impact on content, beyond what it was intended to do. In short, I disagree with this concept but I don't think there is time to really get into it today

I mean, there's way more than a grain of truth, but if you don't want to get into it, then whatever.

As others have pointed out, the efreet are one type of genie, with djinn being the other most common type. Chaotic Good djinn.

The most prominent Norse connection to D&D are fire and frost giants. Care to state your thoughts on that?

Djinn are the most common type, but they are not nearly the most focused-on. Efreets and the City of Brass get the most play of any genie and genie-related media in D&D. People are mentioning the Citadel of Ice and Steel, but how long has it been since we've had something in the fiction cover that? I can find third party stuff on the City of Brass no problem; it's pretty easy to tell which one has a more central role in the D&D Community.

Meanwhile, no one cares about Frost Giants because it's being expressed by people from or adjacent to that culture. The portrayal of Frost Giants doesn't really rank much with people compared to bad stereotypes of Arabs. I've seen someone review that City of Brass 3PP that came out 3 years ago and... it's not a good look. And that's not really on Wizards, but at the same time it's part of the problem with the general fiction built up around D&D, how certain things are just really problematic, and how the community can run with them.

This is a good point and one I feel that will be a headache for WotC if it decides to spend more time on presenting Good versions of various creatures. There's just less use for them. That's why we have tons of information on the Demon Lords and Archdevils and unique celestials have barely appeared since 3.5's Book of Exalted Deeds.

At the same time, you can be evil without playing into every bad stereotype out there. It's not that they can't be evil, but more that you need to separate it from every bad stereotype out there.
 

I think another poster pointed out that being respectful and considerate is more of a process rather than an end goal. It's something we'll be evaluating and re-evaluating frequently. As such, there's always going to be something in D&D that causes someone some levels of discomfort. I'm certainly not arguing that this means we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing. But I do think we've got to accept that sometimes you've got to live with the mild discomfort because they're not necessarily a better solution at this particular point in time.
 

This is where it gets tricky for all of us interested in fantasy gaming. The harm, arguably, of orientalism-as-fantasy is that it was taken as reality. Historically, for many in the West, the Eastern woman was a figure like Scherezade, ruled by a despotic tyrant and in need of saving (i.e. colonial intervention). Wouldn't it be possible to take the fantastical elements and treat them as fantasy instead of as reality (especially as filtered through the grab-bag kitsch aesthetic that is dnd)? Perhaps in the same way we include a fantasy feudalism in our games without denying that the reality of medieval feudalism was much harsher and exploitative than the gloss that exists in our games?
The allure of fantasy gaming is the idea of a romanticized past rather than the harsh ideals of reality. We don't use real feudalism because real Medieval feudalism sucks. I don't think it's coincidence that the idea of far-off places we've never been (and my never be) gets colored by our desires to see and do things not as they are but as we want them to be. And I don't think that's inherently a bad thing, as long as people aren't hurt by it. The idea of running an adventure based on 1,001 Arabian Nights has allure in the fact the tales are so enchanting and far removed from the lives of the players who experience it. I doubt anyone who read it is going to claim to have a degree in Ancient Middle Eastern History though.
 

Djinn are the most common type, but they are not nearly the most focused-on. Efreets and the City of Brass get the most play of any genie and genie-related media in D&D. People are mentioning the Citadel of Ice and Steel, but how long has it been since we've had something in the fiction cover that? I can find third party stuff on the City of Brass no problem; it's pretty easy to tell which one has a more central role in the D&D Community.

Meanwhile, no one cares about Frost Giants because it's being expressed by people from or adjacent to that culture. The portrayal of Frost Giants doesn't really rank much with people compared to bad stereotypes of Arabs. I've seen someone review that City of Brass 3PP that came out 3 years ago and... it's not a good look. And that's not really on Wizards, but at the same time it's part of the problem with the general fiction built up around D&D, how certain things are just really problematic, and how the community can run with them.
Efreeti are focused on for the same reason 90% of the Monster Manual is evil aligned: PCs NEED VILLIANS. The game is focused on challenges. Noble Djinn doesn't make good villains, like how metallic dragons aren't as used as chromatics are. How many guides to Hell/the Abyss are there compared to guides to Mount Celestia? How many Demon Lords can you name vs. the Celestial Host?

Oh, and thanks for confirming no one cares when it's a European culture being demonized.
 

Dear @Voadam,
Your analysis is wrong. The efreets are not the only Arabic presence in D&D. The Djinn, Marid and Dao are quite insulted by your lack of respect of their presence in the MM and to a lesser degree the DMG with the ring of Djinn summoning. How rude of you.

Also, the Djinn are the opposite of the efreet. They are noble spirit working against the efreets in a war that has raged since the dawn of time.

This mean that the Arabic culture is represented with good and bad examples. And the bad are bad in their culture too. So the depiction is quite accurate up to a certain point as there are bit more nuances than what I have pointed out. And no efreets were ever meant to represent the Arabic people.
To my esteemed colleague, the gentlemen from Helldritch.

I regret to inform you that my analysis did not say the Efreeti were the only Arabic presence in core D&D.

"In core D&D genies are the most obviously Arabic connection in the game, and genies in core D&D are most prominent for the cruel slave-owning Lawful Evil Efreeti of the City of Brass."

I do vaguely remember the Ring of Djinni Summoning being in a book along with an Efreeti Bottle.

1641852541647.png

For some reason Efreeti stuck out more as top of mind.

I do appreciate your efforts on behalf of the Djinn of . . . whatever the name of their iconic air citadel is called to show that everyone should consider them objectively as prominent in D&D as Efreeti of the City of Brass.
 

What was misguided about the criticisms? I mean, I've seen a lot of critiques of art when it comes to minorities. I generally think they are on-point for what they are. But I think this is way overblown compared to the reverse: the D&D fandom coming down on minority fans for expressing their problems with D&D.

It depends on the specific critique in question. But often I find that it is a misguided because 1) it isn't accurate----the criticism isn't addressing something that is a genuine problem and 2) the approach sews further divisiveness and alienates people from one another.

I think your framing here actually captures the kind of overblown critique I am talking about. You are framing it as majority fans coming down on minority fans for their opinions. But that isn't what this is because the reality of the criticisms isn't that simple and doesn't fall so cleanly on lines of identity. Often it is majorly fans making the criticisms I am talking about, and frequently it is minority fans who are pushing back against it. This isn't something where the ideas are only being espoused by group A and defended by group B. This is a very big oversimplification of the discussion (and one that frames it so it sounds like people who take your position on are the right side of some kind of racial conflict, which I don't think is what this is about)
 

Efreeti are focused on for the same reason 90% of the Monster Manual is evil aligned: PCs NEED VILLIANS. The game is focused on challenges. Noble Djinn doesn't make good villains, like how metallic dragons aren't as used as chromatics are. How many guides to Hell/the Abyss are there compared to guides to Mount Celestia? How many Demon Lords can you name vs. the Celestial Host?

Oh, and thanks for confirming no one cares when it's a European culture being demonized.
Very good comment!

It kind of goes back to my point about not losing our mind about single instances of anything. If there is an example of X culture and it happens to be a Villain then it’s not exactly unusual. It’s just because campaigns need far more antagonists than allies.
 

Remove ads

Top