D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[Lanefan]

It struck me to think about a player with two characters - two character sheets. I can readily picture the characters separated in the game world, in circumstances normally expected to forestall them availing themselves of one another's resources. 'These' resources belong to this character, 'those' resources to that one. There seems to me in this case something beyond only resources the player controls. We might add further parameters: the location of those resources, which... character (?!) they are available to? At some point I find it easier to call character sheet a record of the character's resources.

Exactly. We play more than one character side-along all the time, and each character's sheet pertains only to that character and deals with only that character's resources.

For example, if I'm running both Aloysius and Bjarnni in the same party and Aloysius loans Bjarnni 500 g.p. that loan gets noted on both sheets. (though usually I'll try to avoid having my characters share resources this way; I'd have had Aloysius ask someone else's PC for the loan first)

 

[Lanefan]

Yes. You and I are on the same page here. Many of my comments were based on the presumptions put forth by @HammerMan who said that adventurers will have 10-50k in gold by 5th level(yeah, right)

This one's very edition-dependent, in that in 1e a character will probably have - or have gone through - way more than 50K by 5th level. 5e seems stingier with its treasure so maybe Hammerman's numbers are high there, I don't know.

 

[Maxperson]

This one's very edition-dependent, in that in 1e a character will probably have - or have gone through - way more than 50K by 5th level. 5e seems stingier with its treasure so maybe Hammerman's numbers are high there, I don't know.

Yeah. Waaaaaaaaaay too high. The expected average numbers are something like 560 gold by level 5, 20,100 gold by level 10 and 818,000 by level 20. Keep in mind that levels 1-3 happen in the blink of an eye since level 3 is essentially level 1.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not explain why they are broke, but rather why they are not retired.

I had a PC once who took his first biggish haul and opened up a shop that sold eclectic goods. I hired people to run it while we were away and paid well to inspire loyalty(less theft). They bought and sold items to make money, but I also used it to sell the magic items and goods that we acquired adventuring. I mean, why sell to a merchant for half-price when I could sell it through my store and get full price(minus shop expenses)?

Again, we're on the same page here.

Yeah. Spellcasters are fairly rare in my game. If the PCs go to the main temple in the entire Forgotten Realms for a major deity, the high priest will be a cleric with double digit levels(or the 5e stat block equivalent), and there will probably be 3-6 more clerics there of lower levels. A lesser major temple's high priest MIGHT have low double digit levels(or 5e stat block equivalent) and 1-3 lower clerics. A medium temple probably has 1 single digit level cleric and MAYBE 1 other cleric there. Shrines and lesser temples may not have a cleric at all. Acolyte background priests are 99% of the priesthood. Wizards are similarly limited in number, and sorcerers rarer than that since they are bloodline related.

I was never even really all that convinced by the whole "a hierarchy of guys with higher levels runs things" conceit that old time D&D seemed to imply. I mean, it serves a couple of purposes in a sort of prototypical D&D campaign, but it nothing like what would ACTUALLY happen. Look at the real world, the Dean isn't some prestigious researcher, he's the guy that knew how to kiss ass with the Board of Regents. He's probably the equivalent of D&D's 3rd level Magic User, he's bona fide, but not extraordinary. Likewise, how would the King have learned the awesome skills of a 9th level fighting man? Like where? No, he probably doesn't even know how to use a sword! And so on and so forth.

I mean, sure, its heroic fantasy, or some fairly adjacent genre, so we of course roll with it to a degree, but still... Yes, in my last full up 4e campaign there were SOME high heroic tier figures, here and there, though mostly not politically or organizationally powerful figures in most cases. If there is ONE PARAGON in the whole land, well, that's pretty much what paragon means... Epic tier guys? Nah, they are the ones that bards sing about when they sing the classics, most probably lived 1000's of years ago.

I never really dug the equating of wealth in a conventional sense with other sorts of achievements either. I mean, 5e at least doesn't seem to care about that much. 4e just basically made wealth meaningless anyway, and then let you play with lots of 'gold pieces'. Honestly, its probably a reasonably solid approach, overall. Anyway, in a world where dragons eat your gold treasure hoards, chances are the world mostly runs on barter anyway, lol.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This assumes the party is planning to burn bridges as fast as it meets them and never stay in the same realm for long; as having friends in high places is hella more useful than putting yourselves on a 'Wanted' poster.

Gosh, and who's going to collect that reward? lol. If there IS someone that tough, then the local powers that be have to fear THAT GUY a lot more than they fear me... Obviously its a very unrealistic world in the sense that there are individuals who are basically tough enough to thumb their noses at armies. As I've said before, best not to look too hard at this kind of thing, or you're going to explode the entire myth all over your D&D game...

This is one of those things I liked about the web novel Age of Adepts, there were no bones about it in the World of Adepts, the strong rule, the weak serve. of course in AoA a 2nd Grade Adept could basically defeat a literally endless number of normal humans. Heck, even an Advanced Apprentice could basically off entire small army units if they were clever and optimized their resources well.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Think of a major manor house or small castle along the lines of Downton Abbey. That place had dozens of people on staff, and that's before needing to worry about guards or security. There's also ongoing maintenance on the building and outbuildings, which can add up.

What Max didn't mention but maybe should have is that unless the manor house is in a big city town there's a good chance it and-or its surrounding lands will also generate some income - maybe not enough to offset expenses, but better than nothing.

Not every adventurer will want to go this route, of course; but for those that do it very much can be a drain on finances.

Well, those estates were, in their heydays, HUGE cash generating machines. That is why their owners built those huge manors. The show Downton Abbey is just depicting how low they fell with the advent of the modern era. Why did they need dozens of staff? Because being able to hire that many showed off your wealth! They might have been expensive, they were MEANT to be expensive, but compared to the riches big medieval landlords had, they were really not that big a drain.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This one's very edition-dependent, in that in 1e a character will probably have - or have gone through - way more than 50K by 5th level. 5e seems stingier with its treasure so maybe Hammerman's numbers are high there, I don't know.

Only if you used the training rules and took the treasure tables at face value. Even that that seems high to me. Any 1e PC who has 20k gp also has 20k XP, and is thus level 5 (again, this might not be true if you actually used the training rules, but I really don't know anyone who ever took those seriously, Gygax apparently never used them either).

So, I guess in theory a level 5 PC could have 50k gp in AD&D, technically. It isn't all that likely, and most classes would be 6th (or higher) level at that point (Paladins I think are the main exception there). Chances are pretty good in 1e that 90% of that is in the form of items, which have a fixed GP value in that edition (and it counts for XP too). Also remember, you CAN get XP in other ways, so 1GP/XP is just an UPPER LIMIT, and in 2e chances are good it doesn't really apply, though in 1e it probably isn't too far off if you play anything close to 'by the book'.

I must say however, we utterly ignored all of that stuff except in the early days and made up our own ideas about treasure and how to give out XP. In 2e I did a lot of just giving it out as I saw fit, which actually the rules kind of tell you to do, and in 4e we stopped tracking it at all pretty early on. I haven't GMed 5e, but XP isn't even a mechanism that exists in my own game nowadays.

 

[Maxperson]

I was never even really all that convinced by the whole "a hierarchy of guys with higher levels runs things" conceit that old time D&D seemed to imply. I mean, it serves a couple of purposes in a sort of prototypical D&D campaign, but it nothing like what would ACTUALLY happen. Look at the real world, the Dean isn't some prestigious researcher, he's the guy that knew how to kiss ass with the Board of Regents. He's probably the equivalent of D&D's 3rd level Magic User, he's bona fide, but not extraordinary. Likewise, how would the King have learned the awesome skills of a 9th level fighting man? Like where? No, he probably doesn't even know how to use a sword! And so on and so forth.

In mundane places, sure. And I'm sure in the church there are non-cleric priests who jockey for position like that. There really is a god, though, and the cleric is that god's mouthpiece and wields his authority. That god is going to be the one putting clerics in positions of authority and woe be unto those who try to thwart the god's will for personal ambition. Settings like Eberron where the gods are remote being exceptions of course.

I mean, sure, its heroic fantasy, or some fairly adjacent genre, so we of course roll with it to a degree, but still... Yes, in my last full up 4e campaign there were SOME high heroic tier figures, here and there, though mostly not politically or organizationally powerful figures in most cases. If there is ONE PARAGON in the whole land, well, that's pretty much what paragon means... Epic tier guys? Nah, they are the ones that bards sing about when they sing the classics, most probably lived 1000's of years ago.

This is very setting dependent. I run the Forgotten Realms, so I'm already stretching things by reducing casters and high level beings to the levels I have them at. High level non-PCs running around is sort of the hallmark of the Realms.

I never really dug the equating of wealth in a conventional sense with other sorts of achievements either. I mean, 5e at least doesn't seem to care about that much. 4e just basically made wealth meaningless anyway, and then let you play with lots of 'gold pieces'. Honestly, its probably a reasonably solid approach, overall. Anyway, in a world where dragons eat your gold treasure hoards, chances are the world mostly runs on barter anyway, lol.

lol True! It's more fun to get and spend gold, though!

 

[Lanefan]

Gosh, and who's going to collect that reward? lol. If there IS someone that tough, then the local powers that be have to fear THAT GUY a lot more than they fear me... Obviously its a very unrealistic world in the sense that there are individuals who are basically tough enough to thumb their noses at armies. As I've said before, best not to look too hard at this kind of thing, or you're going to explode the entire myth all over your D&D game...

Nah - part of that "entire myth" is contained in the simple adage "There's always a bigger fish".

And even without anyone ever collecting the reward, piss off the monarchy and eventually your mere presence will cause unrest and-or annoyance wherever you go in the realm. Doors - official or law-abiding ones, anyway - will be closed to you. You'll constantly have to watch your backs for fear some bozo might try punching way above his weight to haul you in, meaning you'll be keeping field watches even during downtime. And before long you'll either have to turn yourselves in when the militia find you or double down on your crimes by injuring or killing them in order to get away.

It's all very Game-of-Thrones - which means I like it - but it'd be a hard way to run a party as players.

 

[Lanefan]

Only if you used the training rules and took the treasure tables at face value. Even that that seems high to me. Any 1e PC who has 20k gp also has 20k XP, and is thus level 5 (again, this might not be true if you actually used the training rules, but I really don't know anyone who ever took those seriously, Gygax apparently never used them either).

I use training rules and always have. Different, of course, from the RAW Gygax version; but a trained 5th-level character can expect to have spent about 14000 g.p. in total training costs to get there. (my usual rule-of-thumb for training costs is 1000 per level being trained into, with a small randomizer applied along with an occasional situational adjustment)

That said, as I don't use the xp-for-gp model wealth tends to accrete faster than RAW expects, particularly at low levels.

So, I guess in theory a level 5 PC could have 50k gp in AD&D, technically. It isn't all that likely, and most classes would be 6th (or higher) level at that point (Paladins I think are the main exception there). Chances are pretty good in 1e that 90% of that is in the form of items, which have a fixed GP value in that edition (and it counts for XP too). Also remember, you CAN get XP in other ways, so 1GP/XP is just an UPPER LIMIT, and in 2e chances are good it doesn't really apply, though in 1e it probably isn't too far off if you play anything close to 'by the book'.

I must say however, we utterly ignored all of that stuff except in the early days and made up our own ideas about treasure and how to give out XP. In 2e I did a lot of just giving it out as I saw fit, which actually the rules kind of tell you to do, and in 4e we stopped tracking it at all pretty early on. I haven't GMed 5e, but XP isn't even a mechanism that exists in my own game nowadays.

We dropped xp-for-gp ages ago, before I even started DMing. I've never used it.