D&D (2024) New Classes for 5e. Is anything missing?

[Crimson Longinus]

Like I said, there are many Arcane warrior themes

Light armored teleporting Swordmage.
Heavy armored touchsprll Dusk blade
Antimage warrior
Elemental Swordsmen
Magic Police
Portal Guards
Elite Magic Defense Force

Most of these really do not seem like themes to me. Some are description of playstyle others are jobs.

 

[Mind of tempest]

If you got the sentiment, then you would know that this would toss one of my favorite archetypes (the gish) straight to my unplayable list. If you think that's a decent theme, but also think that the warlock and sorcerer are better off combined, then I am seriously skeptical about your sense of taste and judgment.


There is a lot between "a pure narrative less class" and the overly restrictive narrative that you are imposing. If you can't find anything between that, then please don't bother at all because I wouldn't play a class forced into "an artificially engineered people" for it and all its subclasses.

wait how is gish an archetype it is a class structure or type of thing, not an archetype itself is it?

do you have a better narrative that is more than is magic and can fight as we need something?

 

[Parmandur]

You'd also want to swap out the more divine-magic-flavored options like Lay on hands, divine sense, smites, aura of protection, and most of the spell list.

So yeah, it would be a lot like a paladin, if you changed everything.

And while divine magic isn't a rules concept, the idea that clerics and wizards have the same flavor and mechanics is way to much of a stretch for me. I hard disagree with that.

Cleric and Wizard are different from each other, the same that the Cleric and Druid are different from achieving inherent, or the Wiz a rd and the Sorcerer. "Arcane" and "Divine" have no real meaning in the rules or mechanics anywhere.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Cleric and Wizard are different from each other, the same that the Cleric and Druid are different from achieving inherent, or the Wiz a rd and the Sorcerer. "Arcane" and "Divine" have no real meaning in the rules or mechanics anywhere.

Okay. Well then what's missing is mostly a blended fighter-wizard class; something to fill that space the way paladin fills the fighter-cleric space.

The "blended" part is what's missing mechanically (divine smite isn't quite right because it only does one type of damage, and changing that up goes beyond a "refluff") - thematically it's just another way to study magic alongside what wizards, bards, and artificers do.

Once you have that, you can readily make subclasses for other arcane (et al) magic traditions.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Like I said, there are many Arcane warrior themes

Light armored teleporting Swordmage.
Heavy armored touchsprll Dusk blade
Antimage warrior
Elemental Swordsmen
Magic Police
Portal Guards
Elite Magic Defense Force

Of this list, I would say that Antimage Warrior, Magic Police, Portal Guards, and Elite Magic Defense Force are actual themes. The other ones are merely how a magical fighter mage is doing what they are doing.

The most basic difference in 5E between a Paladin and a Fighter/Cleric is the theme of this person believing so strongly in a cause that they swear an Oath that actually gives them magical ability. The difference between a Ranger and a Fighter/Druid is that the Ranger is specifically a tracker and one who is meant to lead others through the wilderness safely. So for a similar gish... we need something that this class does or belongs to that isn't the same as what a Fighter/Wizard is. Those ones I pointed out would definitely work in that regard, because they are all specifically something that this magical warrior does that a baseline Wizard does not, just like the Ranger specifically does tracking and survival for themselves and others that a baseline Druid does not.

The question then being whether a magical warrior that is a planar guard or a noble defensive knight that stands next to Kings and Queens to protect them, or a cop that goes out to take down unlawful magic-users are themes that other gish fans would want. But it doesn't sound like it though... it always seems like they want completely fluffless warrior mages that are like Fighter/Wizards except they get their own special mechanics. And that's why the identity has never gone any farther, because the Fighter and the Rogue are the only two classes in the game that are just umbrella terms for a bunch of thematic identities that come out of the subclasses. Every other class has a theme built in, and I don't see WotC ever creating another fluffless "umbrella" class.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Of this list, I would say that Antimage Warrior, Magic Police, Portal Guards, and Elite Magic Defense Force are actual themes. The other ones are merely how a magical fighter mage is doing what they are doing.

The most basic difference in 5E between a Paladin and a Fighter/Cleric is the theme of this person believing so strongly in a cause that they swear an Oath that actually gives them magical ability. The difference between a Ranger and a Fighter/Druid is that the Ranger is specifically a tracker and one who is meant to lead others through the wilderness safely. So for a similar gish... we need something that this class does or belongs to that isn't the same as what a Fighter/Wizard is. Those ones I pointed out would definitely work in that regard, because they are all specifically something that this magical warrior does that a baseline Wizard does not, just like the Ranger specifically does tracking and survival for themselves and others that a baseline Druid does not.

The question then being whether a magical warrior that is a planar guard or a noble defensive knight or a cop that goes out to take down unlawful magic-users is a theme that other gish people would want. It doesn't sound like it though... it always seems like they want completely fluffless warrior mages that are like Fighter/Wizards except they get their own special mechanics. And that's why the identity has never gone any farther, because the Fighter and the Rogue are the only two classes in the game that are just umbrella terms for a bunch of thematic identities that come out of the subclasses. Every other class has a theme built in.

The idea never goes far, but it keeps coming back. Every edition has at least one attempt at the concept, because player keep asking for it.

Swordmage seemed to work fine, was storied enough (each school had it's own backstory but that's okay for wizards)but it's a 4e name so obviously we can't do that.

 

[Parmandur]

Okay. Well then what's missing is mostly a blended fighter-wizard class; something to fill that space the way paladin fills the fighter-cleric space.

The "blended" part is what's missing mechanically (divine smite isn't quite right because it only does one type of damage, and changing that up goes beyond a "refluff") - thematically it's just another way to study magic alongside what wizards, bards, and artificers do.

Once you have that, you can readily make subclasses for other arcane (et al) magic traditions.

Still don't see hie the Artificer doesn't have that space on lockdown.

 

[Parmandur]

The idea never goes far, but it keeps coming back. Every edition has at least one attempt at the concept, because player keep asking for it.

Swordmage seemed to work fine, was storied enough (each school had it's own backstory but that's okay for wizards)but it's a 4e name so obviously we can't do that.

By my count, 5E already has about 26 such attempts, just as Subclasses

 

[Mind of tempest]

The idea never goes far, but it keeps coming back. Every edition has at least one attempt at the concept, because player keep asking for it.

Swordmage seemed to work fine, was storied enough (each school had it's own backstory but that's okay for wizards)but it's a 4e name so obviously we can't do that.

it is a terrible name by all editions standards swordmage sound like a description, not a proper name.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Still don't see hie the Artificer doesn't have that space on lockdown.

Because it's flavor is too restrictive, not wizardy, and you saddled with a robopuppy.

By my count, 5E already has about 26 such attempts, just as Subclasses

And all of them disappoint.