Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[pemerton]

The whole shtick seems to be, thematically, 'adventurers are all scum'.

Or, at least, begin as such.

You have 'standing' 0 (and I see no mechanism to improve it)

<snip>

Your might and presence do increase by one at higher levels.

I haven't thought much about Might yet, but I think you can improve your Precedence by gaining a noble title or other social status, which then yields a corresponding Precedence on the chart.

From p 244 of the Lore Master's Manual"

Titles and deeds are valuable because they grant you access to enterprises like businesses, religious offices and nobility. If properly assumed, these titles can lift an adventurer’s Precedence out of the muck and into something quite formidable.​

harlots (yay we have not advanced yet since Gygax)

In my books (DHB, SG) it says "prostitutes", not "harlots".

you're DEFINITELY going to fail a lot of checks, and those will impose MORE conditions.

<snip>

I figure you could probably play for years without reaching level 10, simply because this game gonna kill every character dead pretty quick! lol. I could be wrong, maybe items and whatnot, and lucky big treasure hauls, can set you up. I guess we shall see...

If a check is failed, a condition is only suffered if the GM also decides that the PC gets what they wanted: so its success (if the player makes the roll); success with a condition (if the the player fails the roll and the GM chooses this); or a failure in the form of a twist (if the player fails the roll and the GM chooses this).

I've only looked at the maths a little bit. I think Help is incredibly important, and so is Gear and also using Nature.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Or, at least, begin as such.

I haven't thought much about Might yet, but I think you can improve your Precedence by gaining a noble title or other social status, which then yields a corresponding Precedence on the chart.

From p 244 of the Lore Master's Manual"

Titles and deeds are valuable because they grant you access to enterprises like businesses, religious offices and nobility. If properly assumed, these titles can lift an adventurer’s Precedence out of the muck and into something quite formidable.​

Ah, OK, so there are 'treasures' which can increase your precedence. I kinda figured that might be true, as I say I rather skimmed the Lore Master's Manual as I was mostly looking for information relevant to character generation. It makes sense of course that some kind of fiction-mediated mechanism would exist, even if only theoretically, to achieve that. I'm still a bit in the dark as to the likelihood of useful quantities of treasure/magic.

In my books (DHB, SG) it says "prostitutes", not "harlots".

Ah, the (burning?) wheels of civilization have advanced far since the 1970s!

If a check is failed, a condition is only suffered if the GM also decides that the PC gets what they wanted: so its success (if the player makes the roll); success with a condition (if the the player fails the roll and the GM chooses this); or a failure in the form of a twist (if the player fails the roll and the GM chooses this).

I've only looked at the maths a little bit. I think Help is incredibly important, and so is Gear and also using Nature.

Right, my conclusion is that it really depends on the GM to regulate how quickly the PCs get worn down by A) the frequency and Ob at which they assess checks, and B) the frequency with which they impose conditions vs twists. Of course you can also get into a lot of trouble from the twists, but conditions represent a very real and immediate death spiral!

Help is important, though I wonder at @Manbearcat's proposed tweak, which seems like it increases the risk of helping. One of the salient features of helping is that it is LESS risky (but not riskless in general).

Nature IMHO represents a kind of 'battery', similar to Healing Surges in 4e, you can tax your nature, ideally in a way that engages your traits, and that increases your dice pool and thus removes some failures, at the cost of said tax. Given that successes both avoid conditions/twists, AND presumably could lead to treasures, yes I would say optimizing your use of your Nature is likely to factor heavily into success.

Honestly, from a designer perspective, I think there may be one or two more moving parts here than is ideal, I'm a very 'less is more' type of engineering guy. Still, it should be interesting to see what works, how, and why.

 

[Manbearcat]

Quick drive-by post (I'll get a subsequent post up detailing the Journey phase of that first session...perhaps later today...perhaps tomorrow):

On Difficulty and Skilled Play

I find the game to have a difficulty arc somewhat similar to Blades in the Dark (though ramped up for sure). Its extremely tough to get the positive feedback loop going in your direction, but there is a clear pivot point once you can reliably muster solid Disposition/Attack + Defend pools for the Conflicts that you primarily face and when you can martial resources reliably for Camp phase Tests. Its not set in stone where that is exactly because play is so dynamic on how characters evolve within through the crucible of play (and that can change dramatically in a 4 session interval). But it is there and you feel a little bit of a weight lifted. It never lets up. The game is always difficult and it can always spiral and get away from you regardless of how safe you are, but there is are a few exhales built-in.

In terms of Skilled Play, there are loads of vectors.

* Team build is very important early on. If you have particular holes, the game will find them and exploit them. So build your team and pick your conflicts and targets very carefully.

* Managing the sort of Pictionary + Rock/Paper/Scissors of Conflicts is extremely important. Concessions in Conflict pile up character ablation just like The Grind so you want to be pick your Conflicts shrewdly, escalate only when necessary (Kill Conflicts are very scary things early), navigate the Attack/Defend/Maneuver/Feint matrix skillfully (including your turn order), and know when to cut your losses/de-escalate.

* Navigating The Grind and your Light clocks are crucial. Knowing when/how to Make Camp (there are a host of interlocking decisions that come with the initial decision around Camp-making) and how/when to fuel Camp Recovery with getting Checks in the Adventure phase is massive.

* Dealing with the Twist/Condition + Success rhythm of failed Tests is huge. The GM should basically be doing this every other one so (50 : 50) on the whole (virtually every failed Test could recognizably yield either outcome) so extrapolating outcomes and incorporating that into your decision-space is an important factor.

* Managing the failure component of your advancement (marking Tests/getting Checks) and your thematic space to generate Persona and Fate (to martial for downstream use) is key to passing key tests next session and downstream of that.

* Managing the logistics of the map. Reliably getting to places to optimize bonuses in Town phase for that upkeep/recovery phase of play and minimize Journey Legs (particularly by maximizing Legs on Road rather than in the Wild) greatly impacts the Adventure phase.

* EDIT - Forgot about Inventory/Gear/Supplies and porter/sentry/guide (et al) acquisition and management all have huge effects on play.

* There are so many resources to call upon to manipulate your dice pools. I won't mention them all, but there is a huge array. Managing those and using them wisely for key Tests is as intuitive as a thing gets in terms of importance on Skilled Play. The other aspect is managing the fiction and the attendant risk of Helping to augment dice pools.


Long story short here. There is a fairly significant gap between unskillful and skillful play in Torchbearer. I don't agree that play is cruel. Its just enormously demanding. And the stakes are very high. The intersection of that yields extremely rewarding skillful play but also accepting the reality that sometimes, even when you play skillfully, the game will turn violently against you and you'll pay dearly. Its not for everyone, but its a type of game that some folks love.


On Might/Precedence and PC Status

I don't agree that adventurers are scum to start off play. Its never been that in a game I've run. Overwhelmingly, the games I've run have featured a world under extreme duress so the stratification of society isn't well-positioned to scarlet letter a lot of folks with "scum." That seems to me to be the default position of the game. Further, Precedence 0 + Might 3 actually yields a not-so-tenuous relationship to the hierarchy of the world even early on.

Being on the social strata of soldiers, criminals, and prostitutes means that some level of parley is in play with shopkeepers, laborers, peasants, boatmen, merchants, financiers, and doctors. Given the a robust suite of capabilities for Tests and Conflicts in the social arena, you can be rather formidable within that strat even at 0 Precedence. And beyond the tier-up at level 6 (+1 Precedence), you can possibly increase your Precedence locally in a Town or with an NPC/guild via Adventures. There are also various and sundry "ignore Precedence when x" in various classses.

And the reality that you're Might 3 is a tangible thing that looms. The Order of Might puts adventurers as very dangerous people. The social sphere has to manage the calculus that the person who is haranguing you has the physical potential for harm/resilience as that of a Dire Wolf!


On Marking Pass/Fail for Advancement w/ Help Houserule

So, to be clear, this is something players get to take advantage of at their discretion; its toggled "on" for a boon at a risk. Once per session you get to mark a test that you Help on w/ the increased danger of assuming a worse condition that you would otherwise (if you hadn't marked). So it doesn't push people away from Helping at all. It just adds a layer of advancement/build/threat calculus for play.

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright, quick excerpt on Journey 1 of the above game.

Referencing map in post above, we settled upon:

* 1 is Elfhome for Taika. 2 is the Remote Village for Karolina. 7 is the Forgotten Temple for Aile.

* The starting point for the game was 2 (Karolina's Remote Village).

* The first Adventure was related to site 8. Karolina's mentor has a pupil named Jora who went to explore the haunted fjord (site 8) called The Echoing Walls. Before The Deep Cold 200 or so years ago (so The Chroniclers say), site 8 was a sister village to Karolina's present Remote Village. When the apocalypse hit, massive landslides caused a tsunami that wiped out the entire village in a single go. It is now just a ruined place, filled with angry spirits wailing in the night about their laments and their lost. Now that the folk of this land are crawling out of their holes (mostly due to the desperation of food shortages, famine, death, and pestilence), many a recovery effort of that once bountiful place has happened in the last few years...all of which have failed.

A few weeks ago, Jora went to that place by himself to scout it out for a prospective recovery effort. He has yet to return (and is long overdue). Karolina's mentor beseeched her to find what became of him.

* So they geared up (default gear) and charted a course from 2 to 4 (via Road) and then from 4 through the Wild to 8. Why not take 4 to 3 and then 3 to 8? 3 is a once Bustling Metropolis (the only bay/harbor of this frozen arctic peninsula) and is fraught with terrible danger. The ferry from there to 8 is presently offline. So 3 Legs - 1 * Road from 2 to 4 and then 2 * Wild (through the Wilderness Twists of Hills then Fjord) from 4 to 8.

The Goals for Adventure 1 (basically a small Adventure of 6 Obstacles OB2-4, Spirits of Might 3 w/ a Disturbed Spirit of Might 5) are as follows:

Karolina - I will find out what happened to Jora.

Taika - I will determine what evil haunts this place.

Aile - I will banish any powerful spirit that sets its will against us.

* Gotta run unfortunately. I'll detail the 3 Tests/results for the 3 Legs of the Journey tonight or tomorrow.

 

[pemerton]

I wonder at @Manbearcat's proposed tweak, which seems like it increases the risk of helping. One of the salient features of helping is that it is LESS risky (but not riskless in general).

I'm still catching up on this thread, and I think @Manbearcat may have also replied to this. But my understanding is that his tweak allows a player to choose to risk the full condition in return for marking a text towards advancement when helping without having to spend a Fate point.

it really depends on the GM to regulate how quickly the PCs get worn down by A) the frequency and Ob at which they assess checks, and B) the frequency with which they impose conditions vs twists. Of course you can also get into a lot of trouble from the twists, but conditions represent a very real and immediate death spiral!

From the Cartographer's Compendium (p 6):

[M]ake sure to throw in a few conditions here and there. Conditions often hurt, but they keep the action moving by allowing the characters to continue making progress. If you focus too much on conditions, players will feel that they’re constantly getting beat up and ground down. If you focus too much on twists, players will feel that they never make any progress. So, try to find a healthy balance between twists and conditions.​

The same text, but without the last sentence, is also in the Scholar's Guide (p 232). It also says this (p 213):

Torchbearer provides a series of interlocking systems for the game master to use to create pressure on the characters. However, the system requires the game master to make judgement calls at certain points in play. The most primary mechanism of judgement is when to apply a twist or condition to the result of a failed test. That is a serious decision in the context of the game.​

As to the frequency and obstacle of tests, there is advice on that in the Adventure Design section of the Scholar's Guide. But it does not talk about level-appropriateness, although in the Cartographer's Compendium adventures are rated by level.

 

[Manbearcat]

On Adventure Difficulty

The books have robust advice on this that amounts to:

1 - Decreased proximity to Town means more difficult Adventures. This is two-fold. The first issue is that threats increase in Might as you go further into the Wild. The second issue is that distance from Town yields increased Journey Legs which means more Toll in the orthodox handling or more decision-points/tests/costs/conflicts in my way of handling (which is basically the same thing but there are meaty, consequential decision-points in the TB1 way/may way of handling it. More Toll = more stress on inputs into the Adventure (loading out/costs to do so/potential Resource Tax) and more dynamic issues with respect to Gear/Conditions as you enter the Adventure phase.

2 - There are 3 types of Adventure. Normal which is 4-6 Obstacles and won't/shouldn't involve a Camp phase. Large which is 10-12 Obstacles and should involve 1-2 Camp phases. Mega which 18-20 Obstacles and should involve 2-3 Camp phases.

3 - The bulk of Obstacles should be 3-5 and most adversaries should be able to muster roughly equal dice to the PCs before Traits. Then a handful of Obstacles that are 1-2 or low Nature/Might creatures. Then each Adventure should have an Obstacle/Creature that puts the group in a serious bind. It overmatches them in dice pool such that they'll have to seriously martial resources to contend with/overcome its threat, have to make a concession in their approach based on the creature's Might/Precedence being beyond them, or they'll just have to decide how to avoid it (and perhaps come back another day to explore/confront it).


Some of this should be signaled outright to the players so they can appropriately load out/prepare for their Journey/Adventure in the Town phase. However, during the Town phase (this is kindred to Info Gathering/Free Play for those familiar with BitD) there are various moves to make (beyond simply recovering) to gain better intel/capability on your Adventure to come and then improve/repair/increase your kit, gear out/provision sufficiently, hire on help, make shrine offerings for boons, etc etc.

So players will (a) know what their Journey entails by way of map (determining total Legs, type of Legs, etc), (b) will know the general gist of their Adventure so they can roughly load out/provision for it, and (c) can make Town moves to amplify their understanding of (a) and (b) to better prepare.

 

[Manbearcat]

Alright, back to the 3 Leg Journey from session 1.

JOURNEY LEG 1 - Hire onto/pay for caravan to get from the Remote Village (2) to the Busy Crossroads (4).

So there is basically 2 options here.

1 - The group of adventurers go it alone and we roll on 1d6 Road Events table to find out what happens.

2 - Players Persuade the caravan that they're good/trusted help along the road, players Haggle the caravan down to an inconsequential price, players martial their Recourses and just pay for it outright (with Tax on the line as the consequence). Regardless its Ob2. The reasoning for that is its basically the same Ob as Lifestyle Cost for an Inn or a hire-on of a Sentry. That the analogue I use for caravanning from one town to the next (and it shouldn't be a particularly difficult Ob).

* All of them are Resource 0.

* Aile has Haggler 3 but no one else has Haggler nor Manipulator to Help.

* All three PCs have Persuader 2 so they can muster 2 + 1 *2 (Help) + 1 (Fresh condition) = 5d. They go that route w/ Aile taking the lead and the other two Helping (and marking their 1/session Help for a test as outlined above...they'll suffer full consequence if failure).

Aile's player decides to use their Trait Colossal Pride against themselves to earn a Check (so if they need to Camp...almost surely won't, but just in case...they'll have a Check to power a Test). The PC regales the caravan-master of their mastery over the primordial powers of the universe and their unique access to the spiritual world...of course the caravan-master should see themselves as lucky to have a sorcerer of such implacable will and mystical prowess alongside them! So they take -1d to the test (so now they have 4d) in exchange for the Check.

They get their 2 Successes required so they're apart of the day's long journey to the Busy Crossroads of site 4. Everyone marks one of their 2 Successes required for Advancement in Persuader (they also need 1 Failure).

We start Journey Leg 2 at the trailhead into the Wild. I'll go over that in a later post as I'm short on time!

 

[Bill Zebub]

This thread is really making me want to check out Torchbearer.

 

[Mannahnin]

2 - Players Persuade the caravan that they're good/trusted help along the road, players Haggle the caravan down to an inconsequential price, players martial their Recourses and just pay for it outright (with Tax on the line as the consequence).

Great write-ups! Really enjoying these.

If you'll forgive a small editorial/proofreader's quibble, I think from what I've seen of your usage in this thread you've meant marshal, "to place in proper rank or position, or "to bring together and order in an appropriate or effective way", rather than martial "related to or suited for war or a warrior".

 

[Manbearcat]

Great write-ups! Really enjoying these.

If you'll forgive a small editorial/proofreader's quibble, I think from what I've seen of your usage in this thread you've meant marshal, "to place in proper rank or position, or to bring together and order in an appropriate or effective way", rather than martial "related to or suited for war or a warrior".

I appreciate the helpful correction! Unfortunately, my brain already knows I engage in this homophone fail with regularity. I’ve been doing it for probably 2 decades or so. It’s weird thing but there is no uptake on the course correction. I guarantee you will continue to see me type martial at a frequency neither of us will be pleased with!

EDIT - Also, N is right next to B and your phone won't autocorrect to homophone! Note this for the future folks!