D&D 5E D&D Races: Evolution, Fantasy Stereotypes & Escapism

Verisimilitude has a specific meaning.
Verisimilitude, "the appearance of being true or real."
If the setting doesn't feature the themes being described, then as matter of cold fact it is not verisimilitude to invoke those themes. It doesn't matter how "baked in" you think certain things are, it matters how things work in the setting being simulated.
Having racist characters existing does give the appearance of being "true or real" where both of those things correspond to the actual world, (where in which racism is ubiquitous).

You appear to have verisimilitude exactly backwards.

If I wrote a book about a utopian society, where there was no strife of any kind, it could be completely internally consistent but it would not have verisimilitude vis a vis the real world.
 
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What fantasy isn't escapist then, in your view? This seems to me to be invoking the "all books are escapist" logic. Which is incompatible with your claim that some fantasy was more or less escapist, and the less escapist stuff failed.

I think fantasy that deals primarily with real-world issues and invokes real-world situations, and has human characters behaving in very human ways is pretty clearly and distinctly different in what it offers, particularly re: escapism, to stuff that's mostly magic systems, lore, superhero fights, and so on.
Since you've avoided directly addressing my concern, what I'm hearing is that you were unapologetic about throwing your weight around like it's OK. And it was NOT OK in my book. Could be a misunderstanding, but I don't really care. Bye, thank you.
 

The dictionary definitions have not changed as far as I can see, for one, and this is an international forum not even US based. So why, even if the connotation (and I would certainly debate that it's the "primary" connotation that changes) in the US, would we have to abide by it ?
Alright. Here's an explicitly UK dictionary definition of "stereotype," listing all senses provided for the noun form of the word.

    • a method of producing cast-metal printing plates from a mould made from a forme of type matter in papier-mâché or some other material
    • the plate so made
  1. another word for stereotypy
  2. an idea, trait, convention, etc, that has grown stale through fixed usage
  3. sociol a set of inaccurate, simplistic generalizations about a group that allows others to categorize them and treat them accordingly
1a and 1b refer to printmaking, which is clearly irrelevant in this context. 2 is, as best I can tell, a reference to animal behavior (repeating the same actions over and over with no clear reason why), which is clearly also irrelevant. 3 relates to literature, convention, or style, not beliefs about groups of people. 4, on the other hand, is explicitly about groups of people...and is exactly the definition I quoted above.

If you're going to use the forum's point of origin as an argument, it would be rather more helpful if the dictionaries of that land actually agreed with you. (This is from the Collins English Dictionary, to be specific.) For the record, the definitions from both Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries also explicitly call out that "stereotype" is especially used when the presumed group characteristic is "wrong" or "harmful," and the New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy does similarly: "A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group, such as “Football players are stupid” or “The English are cold and unfriendly people.”" and "A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group."

This is not something special to the United States. This is not something special to English. In German, the primary meaning of the noun "Stereotyp" (according to Duden, as far as I can tell the most prestigious actively-published dictionary in Germany) is "vereinfachendes, verallgemeinerndes, stereotypes Urteil, [ungerechtfertigtes] Vorurteil über sich oder andere oder eine Sache; festes, klischeehaftes Bild," or when translated into English, "oversimplifying, generalizing, stereotypical judgment, [unjustified] prejudice about oneself or others or a thing; fixed, cliche image."

Furthermore, at least according to the actual dictionary of the Académie française, "stéréotype" doesn't even refer to people at all; it refers to ideas, fashions, or behaviors that have become staid or lost their meaning--and the same goes for more recently-updated ones (since the aforementioned dictionary's 9th edition only reaches "savoir" and therefore the above definition is from 1935) such as Trésor de la langue française informatisé, which (again, ignoring the irrelevant A and C definitions, which relate to book-printing and to construction respectively) gives as definitions:
B. 1. PSYCHOL., SOCIOL. dée, opinion toute faite, acceptée sans réflexion et répétée sans avoir été soumise à un examen critique, par une personne ou un groupe, et qui détermine, à un degré plus ou moins élevé, ses manières de penser, de sentir et d'agir. Synon. cliché.
2. PSYCH. Geste, mouvement, paroles répétés de façon mécanique, sans participation de la volonté, et inadaptés à la situation.
3. LING., STYL. Association stable d'éléments, groupe de mots formant une unité devenue indécomposable, réemployée après avoir perdu toute expressivité et avec une fréquence anormale.

So...yeah. In French, "stereotype" doesn't even mean the meaning you're using it for. And in English (whether UK or US) and German, it means exactly what people are telling you it means. Maybe, instead of dying on this hill, just use the less-loaded term?
 

Verismilitude, "the appearance of being true or real."

Having racist characters existing does give the appearance of being "true or real".
Only in the context of simulating the real world, or a derivative of it.

Which is not what most fantasy fiction, nor most RPGs are doing. It's often not actually something that's particularly important in a setting, and further now you're using the term "racist" extremely colloquially, because racism is actually pretty modern thing. Xenophobia and stereotypes have been common (and frequently demonstrated to cause huge problems for both the people who have them and and the people they're applied to - how many grotesque military and diplomatic errors come down to stereotypes in the pre-modern era? An awful lot.), but they whole "inferior race" notion was extremely rare and usually down to two groups which had lengthy bad blood between them.

And even that's irrelevant, unless the setting determines that it's relevant.
 

Only in the context of simulating the real world, or a derivative of it.
That is exactly what the word means - simulating the real world. You judge how much verisimilitude something has by comparing it to the real world. More like the real world = more verisimilitude. Less like the real world = less verisimilitude.

The word literally means "being like the real world". You're doing all kind of mental gymnastics to make this word mean something it doesn't. You're hanging your entire position, dying on this hill, over a single word for which I have quoted its very short dictionary definition.

Verisimilitude does not have the same meaning as the phrase 'internally consistent'.

Here's Miriam-Webster:

"From its roots, verisimilitude means basically "similarity to the truth". Most fiction writers and filmmakers aim at some kind of verisimilitude to give their stories an air of reality. They need not show something actually true, or even very common, but simply something believable."
 
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The word literally means "being like the real world". You're doing all kind of mental gymnastics to make this word mean something it doesn't.

Verisimilitude does not have the same meaning as the phrase 'internally consistent'.
I disagree. Verisimilitude means making something "feel real". That's not at all the same thing as making it feel like it from "Earth circa 1500-2022", which is how you appear to be using it (invoking "racism" as inherently "real" for example, when that's a very specific phenomenon from a specific period unless we're talking very colloquial usage, as noted).

There are extremely fantastical settings that nonetheless have a high degree of verisimilitude because they're well-written, and the characters are believable and so on.

There extremely down-to-earth settings, which feature absolutely tons of racism, xenophobia, stereotypes, and so on, which almost totally lack verisimilitude, sometimes indeed because of clumsy and exaggerated way those things are used. I might point to the Peter V. Brett's Warded Man/Painted Man series, which heavily features racism (actual racism, not mere xenophobia or stereotypes), racist stereotypes, homophobia, misogyny, etc. etc. but often seems pretty laughable because it's so excessively done. I'd say the same applies to The Expanse at times, especially re: The Belters (in both directions).
 

It's not unfortunate, it's normal and enforces verisimilitude. People from one culture will hate another culture's guts, because it's the stuff that both history and fantasy are made of.
Well, obviously, this is the thing we disagree on - that stereotypes are unfortunate. Obviously it's normal that they exist now and historically, so it would add verisimilitude to include them.

That they are the stuff fantasy is made of would have to be a separate discussion, because "fantasy" can cover a lot of ground.
So I'm allowed to have and use stereotypes, which then allows me to use the word without problem. Thanks for the permission.
You're welcome? You didn't need anyone's permission to use the word how ever you want to use it for your own uses, but in a public forum - well, things get spicy!
 

I disagree. Verisimilitude means making something "feel real". That's not at all the same thing as making it feel like it from "Earth circa 1500-2022", which is how you appear to be using it (invoking "racism" as inherently "real" for example, when that's a very specific phenomenon from a specific period unless we're talking very colloquial usage, as noted).
You're welcome to disagree, but I have clearly shown that the confidence with which you make your pronouncements about what this word means is WAY too sanguine.

That is also, for the record, NOT how I am using the word - to describe a particular time period - so you can dispense with that notion.

You seem to think that I am saying that verisimilitude requires racism when I am in fact saying that verisimilitude accommodates racism. The fear of the 'other' by the way, is absolutely real. Split hairs all you want about the terms racism and xenophobia but groups have been hating other groups for some reason for all of time. I use racism, xenophobia, othering, etc all interchangeably.
 

You're welcome to disagree, but I have clearly shown that the confidence with which you make your pronouncements about what this word means is WAY too sanguine.

That is also, for the record, NOT how I am using the word - to describe a particular time period - so you can dispense with that notion.
It's how it's being used to support the claim that xenophobia/racism are inherently "verisimilitude". If you're not doing that, okay.

And yes I am very sanguine that "feels real" is not the same as "reflects human history".
 

It's how it's being used to support the claim that xenophobia/racism are inherently "verisimilitude". If you're not doing that, okay.

And yes I am very sanguine that "feels real" is not the same as "reflects human history".
No one here has made the claim that verisimilitude 'reflects human history'.

I am making the claim that it reflects human nature. For you to disagree with me would be for you to commit yourself to the position that humans are not predisposed to us-vs-them/in group vs. out group dynamics, whether based on perceptions of race, social class, nationality, etc.

Is that your position?

If the thing that is being represented isn't meant to be understood broadly as human, then you're welcome to do whatever since we have no truly other real world race to compare them to and thus judge the verisimilitude of their representation.
 
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