D&D 5E D&D Races: Evolution, Fantasy Stereotypes & Escapism

[Lyxen]

I don't now what to tell you; dictionaries and (given the context of this discussion) sociologists disagree with you.

Actually they don't, rather than an orientated article, I haver given you the wikipedia article.

Which is fine - you can dislike the term and for your personal uses disregard it, but in a conversation such as this people are going to push back on that.

And I'm going to push back on that push back.

Just...describe groups of people for your campaign in non-offensive ways and with no relation to real world groups of people, I guess? If some people in your setting hold stereotypes about others (which would unfortunately be quite natural, if you want naturalism)

It's not unfortunate, it's normal and enforces verisimilitude. People from one culture will hate another culture's guts, because it's the stuff that both history and fantasy are made of.

then you could make note of those stereotypes and how people (the stereotype-ers, the stereotype-ees, and outside observers) feel about them.

So I'm allowed to have and use stereotypes, which then allows me to use the word without problem. Thanks for the permission.

 

[DarkMantle]

There are plenty of human behaviors that are bad. Slavery and imperialism, for example

Since you did quote me, I need to be emphatic that I wasn't talking about slavery and imperialism. Clearly, there is a line. Murder is human, and I call it bad. I don't know that it was particularly helpful to bring that up here, so let's stay on topic please.

Bullying is a human behavior, but I have zero qualms saying that it is a bad behavior. That doesn't mean I have no empathy for bullies. Most of them are victims themselves, lashing out to try to gain some semblance of power, or following the examples of the authority figures in their lives. But just as a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, a midden by any other name still stinks.

For the third time, I get what you're saying. I'm just not sure that your approach is actually going to accomplish anything. If you just want to lash out at the bully with no objective other than releasing your pain, then fine, call it what you want. If you had a goal of making peace with said bully, I personally would use more mindful language as I already mentioned in the post you quoted. And here on this forum thread, I hope there are not any bullies. Just hopefully people who are talking about their thoughts and feelings when playing D&D.

That's a "positive" stereotype ("Asians are good at math") showing that it is still a problem, because "positive" stereotypes set up unfair and unrealistic universal standards, thus punishing anyone who fails to measure up, while "negative" stereotypes presume flaw and fault and predispose handwaves of evidence to the contrary.

I know what positive or negative stereotypes are, and I know positive stereotypes are problematic/harmful. If you're going to keep quoting me, please understand that to some extent, I think the right thing to do is to de-center myself from having specific conversations around real-life ethnicities and stereotypes.

 

[ART!]

It when it is forced by social pressure, which is what happened there.

Also not censorship.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I guess? I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I'm not sure if I agree or not with the case behind that.

Do you want me to prove it to you? It is something that, unless you're going to quibble constantly over what constitutes "escapism", is pretty possible to prove. I mean, I pretty much proved it already.

It's not unfortunate, it's normal and enforces verisimilitude.

That's not what verisimilitude means.

You're confusing "historical realism" and "verisimilitude within a fantasy setting". Unless the specific setting dictates that human historical realism be applied to fantasy races as part of it's world-building it is not, as a matter of fact, correct to use the term verisimilitude here. That's not an opinion, sorry.

 

[DarkMantle]

Do you want me to prove it to you? It is something that, unless you're going to quibble constantly over what constitutes "escapism", is pretty possible to prove. I mean, I pretty much proved it already.

Not really. I'm sorry but I don't agree that your points are proven.

I'm not going to provide citations to you. You may want to see "proof", but you have to understand I do this for fun on my spare time. So I'm sorry, but I'm not going to argue with you when you start off the conversation by demanding (?) citations in bold letters. I don't owe you that. If I am wrong, then I'm wrong, and I am OK with that. My goal is not to prove anything to you, but to have an interesting conversation with people in an emotionally mature manner (unlike that other thread).

 

[Filthy Lucre]

That's not what verisimilitude means.

You're confusing "historical realism" and "verisimilitude within a fantasy setting". Unless the specific setting dictates that human historical realism be applied to fantasy races as part of it's world-building it is not, as a matter of fact, correct to use the term verisimilitude here. That's not an opinion, sorry.

I disagree. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that xenophobia/othering/'us-vs-them' mentalities are just baked into human nature at a certain level. So it would seem that it would add a degree of authenticity to have these sorts of social prejudices even if they're minor.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not really. I'm sorry but I don't agree that your points are proven.

I'm not going to provide citations to you. You may want to see "proof", but you have to understand I do this for fun on my spare time. So I'm sorry, but I'm not going to argue with you when you start off the conversation by demanding (?) citations in bold letters. I don't owe you that. If I am wrong, then I'm wrong, and I am OK with that. My goal is not to prove anything to you, but to have an interesting conversation with people in an emotionally mature manner (unlike that other thread).

I offered to provide you proof, rather than demanding proof from you.

My question was whether you would accept it, or quibble with it. I know you're not going to provide any proof, that's obvious. But if you both to refuse to provide any, and quibble with stuff from others, that's a bit of a silly position.

What I'm saying is, and what is again, easy to demonstrate, is that level of escapism and success of fantasy does not correlate well in the fantasy fiction market. An awful lot of best-selling fantasy has pretty dark, real-world-y themes.

(As a side-note is perhaps ironic that around 5-10 years ago, there was actually a strong push from well-meaning but perhaps misguided people to remove racism, homophobia, and so on from fantasy, but it never caught on, and even the most modern of authors instead tend to be the ones including those themes rather than excluding them.)

 

[DarkMantle]

I offered to provide you proof, rather than demanding proof from you.

My question was whether you would accept it, or quibble with it. I know you're not going to provide any proof, that's obvious. But if you both to refuse to provide any, and quibble with stuff from others, that's a bit of a silly position.

What I'm saying is, and what is again, easy to demonstrate, is that level of escapism and success of fantasy does not correlate well in the fantasy fiction market. An awful lot of best-selling fantasy has pretty dark, real-world-y themes.

Well I think that dark fantasy IS escapism, just a different kind of escapism than traditional fantasy. In fact, I touched upon this a couple times upthread. To be transparent, I found your approach is a tad too aggressive. Have I riled you up somehow? Why? What did I do?

 

[Filthy Lucre]

To be transparent, I found your approach is a tad too aggressive. Have I riled you up somehow? Why? What did I do?

You should meet other people's aggression.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I disagree. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that xenophobia/othering/'us-vs-them' mentalities are just baked into human nature at a certain level. So it would seem that it would add a degree of authenticity to have these sorts of social prejudices even if they're minor.

Sorry but your disagreement appears to be simply based in error re: the meaning of the word.

Verisimilitude has a specific meaning. If the setting doesn't feature the themes being described, then as matter of cold fact it is not verisimilitude to invoke those themes. It doesn't matter how "baked in" you think certain things are, it matters how things work in the setting being simulated.

The reference to The Expanse is illustrative of this failure to realize that different settings have different themes. The Expanse intentionally about those themes. That is literally focus of the story. And it's entirely about humans, too. It's not a fantasy setting either - it's towards the harder end of science-fiction, and set in the future of the human race, in this solar system.

Well I think that dark fantasy IS escapism, just a different kind of escapism than traditional fantasy.

What fantasy isn't escapist then, in your view? This seems to me to be invoking the "all books are escapist" logic. Which is incompatible with your claim that some fantasy was more or less escapist, and the less escapist stuff failed.

I think fantasy that deals primarily with real-world issues and invokes real-world situations, and has human characters behaving in very human ways is pretty clearly and distinctly different in what it offers, particularly re: escapism, to stuff that's mostly magic systems, lore, superhero fights, and so on. The former may well drag you back to earth, particularly when things happen in it that have direct analogues to experiences from your own life, and may well make you think about real-world issues that you maybe rather wouldn't. The latter does the opposite - it cushions and cocoons you in a world of fantasy that has no danger of causing much thinking about the real world, and instead, may well ask you to ponder or learn elaborate backstories and lore, or think about the potential shenanigans the design of the magic system might allow.