• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Argyle King

Legend
The way you wrote your original post seemed to imply a strong negative here. I think in the context of all this it's a positive that creators will feel a need to collaborate if they want to produce work outside of their own cultural experience. Maybe one day we will move beyond that, but we've had the opposite for a long, long time.

Not to be cynical, but how would the audience know if someone were to lie?

I see a lot of products advertised as "first ever adventure written by [month-appropriate-minority]..." Maybe that's true, and I would like to believe that is usually is, but I probably wouldn't know if it isn't.

It's certainly not a new concept to put a fake name on a book to boost sales. Pseudonyms and pen names are an old literary concept. Giving the audience the belief that they (the authors) were a different gender, ethnicity, or nationality are reasons which have been used in the past.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

BookTenTiger

He / Him
Not to be cynical, but how would the audience know if someone were to lie?

I see a lot of products advertised as "first ever adventure written by [month-appropriate-minority]..." Maybe that's true, and I would like to believe that is usually is, but I probably wouldn't know if it isn't.

It's certainly not a new concept to put a fake name on a book to boost sales. Pseudonyms and pen names are an old literary concept. Giving the audience the belief that they (the authors) were a different gender, ethnicity, or nationality are reasons which have been used in the past.
How many people in the past have had to use the pseudonym of a white man in order to be published? (Lots.)
 


The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
One of the things that I notice keeps coming up in this thread, is the discourse on what disagreement on whether something is racist within the group in question means- and it is really sort of bracing to see how quickly dissenting views on the subject from people who are members of that group are dismissed or even vilified (presumably because they're more threatening to the status quo of the movement) and this isn't the only space I've seen that happen in, and I feel like it sort of needs a call out. So let me be clear: some people of the culture in question suggesting that something is racist does not make it racist, some people of the culture in question suggesting that something is not racist does not make it non-racist. No ethnic group is an ideological monolith.

The question of authority as relating to cultural heritage is problematic because it depends upon a perceived relationship between one's experiences and the truth of one's statement, but people with equal amounts of both disagree as their perspective still differs because there isn't any such thing as a definitive asian experience. This leads to different values and weights, what one person might consider harmful another wouldn't, some of that is even conditioned by in a self-fulfilling prophecy where individuals are effectively conditioned to reject or invoke racism as a factor. My family certainly experienced racism (to this day my father is your blue collar italian landscaper), but also swear against it as a convention of ideology, as an easy and generally agreeable example.

There are some nasty, pervasive, deeply held beliefs embedded within even this movement inherited from the culture most of its participants come from, I find that they tend to manifest themselves in discussions like this one, where the tone can quickly become paternalistic, and deconstruction of the present injustice is rejected on the grounds that it's a distraction or has already been well trod by others, as a sort of deflection protecting the entrenched beliefs that have been rebranded to reconcile them with the goals of the movement itself which are opposed to the essential values of nativism, segregation, and nationalism (the foundations of white supremacy) from which they are derived.

Generally these beliefs relate to the nationalistic views of culture and people, that attempt to construct an ownership of culture married to the colonialist boxes-- maintenancing cultural borders accordingly to blood quanta, or degree of cultural immersion as a social proxy for it. The idea that Italians write Italian stories or some such, that they have a particular perspective peculiar to them, that they all share. But this should be understood itself as an outdated and racist idea, because it sublimates the intrinsic intersectionality of identity-- each piece of culture wasn't just authored by a culture but people, with a fractal of identities, not just Chinese but "Straight or Gay" "Man or Woman (or otherwise)" "Urban or Rural" "Conservative or Revolutionary" and so forth.

It attempts to package the marginalized people of a society within the same ideological context as their oppressors (the ones internal to their society, rather than ones subjugating their society as a whole) by repainting them in the colors of a primarily national outlook, as a prize piece in a culture war entirely divorced from their original context, and by people who can only loosely be described as "the same people" as their own outlook is mostly different, and much closer to that of their enemies in the same culture war.

In the context of OA, we see this come to the fore in the fact that the discourse on Anti-Asian racism largely ignores the Asian authorship of many of its influences-- namely Chinese and Japanese Action Cinema and the way in which it is a product of their ability to project their culture and value system into the larger world during the 1970s and 80s. Unlike discourses that relate to blacks in the U.S. and indigenous people under the descendants of imperialists the world over, this one relates to both people who make up the dominant classes of their cultural origin point AND migrants (who are a naturally vulnerable class). When discussing Samurai, we are discussing the culture that subjugated the Ainu of Hokkaido and later the Ryukyu islands before a major military defeat at the hands of another force of imperialism... all within the last two hundred years. Chinese Imperialism is both more recent and older, although it was at the time of this publication, undergoing an unprecedented period of intellectual freedom and openness (prior to Tiannmen Square in 1989, which saw the end of this period) and was even then perpetrating both a physical and cultural genocide of the Uygher (which began in the 50s) whilst stressing reunification with Taiwan.

I bring up these thoughts because racism is understood in the modern movement to require power and privilege, not just prejudice, but awarding those in an Asian context somewhat requires narrowing the scope to Asian experiences within the United States, even while the United States was being strongly and consistently impacted by cultural exports from their homelands. Some of the most 'sacred' bits of Americanah from this era and the previous (Westerns) are based on templates exported from Japan (with Seven Samurai dropping in 1954 to be reimmortalized as the Magnificent Seven in 1960, and did you know Kurosawa apparently had a hand in writing the Japanese scenes for Tora! Tora! Tora! ? I just found out) In this context OA can be understood as an outgrowth of global Asian cultural power (specifically that of certain players, who are themselves particularly privileged relative to other less powerful or recognized nations within the Eastern 'sphere') tempered by relative lack of information, and the pulpy indignity of American Fantasy during this era (or at least the eras that most influenced the creators of the game.) Of course, this is then mitigated by the fact that the United States still had greater privilege overall than either power after the outcomes of the second world war only a few decades earlier, and was simultaneously acting on them (especially Japan, and Korea as well, who is usually left out of the discourse.)

Very Hot Take: Anyone who tells you its simple is being largely reductionist by appealing to a kind of ideological trope, because the current discourse is kind of scary, and a kind of unquestioning deference is a comforting means of avoiding accusation. But largely, it betrays a privileged attitude that understanding racism for themselves is beyond them, and must be taken as a matter of faith-- which conveniently absolves of the need to understand it, and deflects responsibility for the ethics of the power they're wielding elsewhere-- often against other members of the group who might be harmed. You should absolutely be empathetic, and you should absolutely read analysis from members of the group in question, in fact it should be your main (but not only) source! You should do so knowing that it won't serve your own interests by being open and shut, even if someone tries to sell you on their position with the promise that it is, be prepared for a diversity of experience, and take action with an eye for validating those perspectives simultaneously, looking for the lessons they have to teach you and respecting the intrinsic complexity of both other cultures and your own.

Ok sorry that was so long, its a bunch of stuff that boiled up in the last seven pages of reading, and how it intersects with my critical, identity and social justice centric background.
 
Last edited:

BookTenTiger

He / Him
That's my point.

So, in contemporary times, if there's a particular identity associated with selling more books, a similar approach could be used.
In the past, folks have used pseudonyms because the people in power had set up racist and sexist systems to prevent other folks from gaining power.

This is a very different situation. This is about increasing representation, and holding publishers and creators responsible. In fact, I find the whole idea of commodification of race to be pretty gross and disingenuous, as if the fear that someone might lie about their identity should prevent anyone from trying to diversify the voices being published.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter

Things I’ve noticed about this and similar threads:

1) discounting current complaints because few people gave credence to past complaints

2) assuming anyone of a given race- on either side of the discussion- has THE definitive take, and positions all others of that race can be disregarded.

Thing is…this is complex stuff. Change takes time, and definitely won’t occur if nobody complains. And sometimes, even problematic aspects of culture have silver linings.

For example, for a very long time, the only roles black actors could get on stage, screen, radio or TV were steeped in negative stereotypes. But for all the distasteful things about those roles, they paved the way for subsequent actors to get more meaningful and less stereotyped roles.

And even as the roles those early actors played perpetuated racist myths, they also provided those actors incomes that made some of them well-off by the standards of even contemporary white society.

OA is a deeply flawed product. People have said it for years. But it also opened a door to including non-European cultures as centerpieces for RPGs. It’s failings have largely been improved upon by subsequent iterations and even the products of other companies.
 
Last edited:

Argyle King

Legend
In the past, folks have used pseudonyms because the people in power had set up racist and sexist systems to prevent other folks from gaining power.

This is a very different situation. This is about increasing representation, and holding publishers and creators responsible. In fact, I find the whole idea of commodification of race to be pretty gross and disingenuous, as if the fear that someone might lie about their identity should prevent anyone from trying to diversify the voices being published.

It shouldn't prevent someone. That was not any part of my statement.

Commodifying an identity isn't an unheard of concept though. There are several months throughout the year during which companies (some of whom have rather horrible attitudes during human beings as a whole) target particular communities.

Yes, for writers, oppression was a factor in using different names. George Eliot is one of many examples.

There are also writers who wrote under different names so as to have creative freedoms they may have otherwise been denied due to what their other names were seen as representing. For example, Anne Rice wrote some of her books using the name A.N. Roquelare (among others).

Hearing other voices is certainly a good thing. But a name on a page doesn't necessarily equate to a voice within a book. Even in just the context of this thread and OA, there are questions about how much (or how little) certain people were involved in writing a book.
 

Aldarc

Legend
In addition, the OP didn't ask the same question as is in the title. The actual question the OP posed is as follows:

But what are your thoughs...was it that bad back in ye olden times?

Answering that question would require ... you know, discussing the standards for the time, and whether it was "good" or "bad," not just people discussing how they feel about it now having come across it for the first time.
The OP did ask the question, because he asks it in the title; however, there are multiple questions that the OP asks:
(a) The Title: "Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?"
(b) Beginning of the Post: "...did Kwan have a point?" (What is Kwan's point? This refers back to the perceived racism in OA.)
(c) End of the Post: "But what are your thoughts...was it that bad back in ye olden times?"

The latter question does not, IMHO, erase the other questions or OP's framework about racism in OA, but, rather, it builds upon it, expanding it to the wider cultural Sitz im Leben of the work's creation.

(2) In regards to the last question, this is where I find the German expression of "jein"* helpful. However, I believe that both @The-Magic-Sword and @Dannyalcatraz have addressed the nuance of that question: i.e., the "silver linings" of problematic aspects of culture and the unintended harm that can result from people, out of ignorance or otherwise, trying to do good.

* A portmanteau of the German words "ja" (yes) and "nein" (no), which is often used in colloquial parlance to mean "yes and no."
 

I'm sorry to say, but... you don't speak for all your people.

You tell us that we should remain silent. But history and many in various minority communities tell us that our silence communicates complicity, agreement, and acceptance.

Not really interested in getting back into this topic but this turn in the conversation caught my attention.

I feel like there is a bit of a double standard here. When posters from group A say they are bothered by something or want people to speak up, then a lot of folks say we need to be quiet and listen. But then when a poster isn't bothered and says he doesn't need people to speak up (I don't think he was saying people should be silent, I think he was expressing skepticism towards people who are loud about this because it feels paternalistic to him: I could be wrong, not sure the poster's full range of views here), the poster is told he doesn't speak for 'all your people' (and that we must say something otherwise we are complicit). If you believe in listening to people from that group, shouldn't you also consider what this person has to say and not attack them?

I can see where he is coming from in some respects. My wife is from Thailand. Obviously if someone says something outrageously offensive, I need to say something. But I also need to read my wife and let her defend herself, and, probably more importantly, I have to consider if my reaction is going to make things worse for her (this has happened once before). Also my reactions are not always going to the the same as hers. There were things I thought would upset her, but she was totally fine with, or even appreciated (awkward things people said but they were done with good intentions, which to her is the most important thing). And the issue of treating a group of people like children, that is a real issue and it is insulting to people when that seems to be going on. It can also come off as sounding like "We know better than you".
 


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top