D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Maxperson]

Thats the short path to power creep, in most games.

Whereas pushing classes down is the shortest path to a boring game. Best to lift them up carefully and make a strong effort not to exceed the current top classes.

 

[Mort]

2e was great for 'casters have trouble for 5 levels then start to just end encounters' but a lot of drawbacks that went away in all other editions after it did away with

1e and 2e thought that suck early, awesome later was a great way to balance - it was a flawed thought!

Also in 2e, once wizards started getting stoneskin (7th level?) They started REALLY looking down at martials!

 

[Maxperson]

Nah, I'm talking in the very general sense.

If something (Wizards? whatever) are busted, then nerf them. If Faction X in Game Y, is broken, dont buff Factions A, B, and C. Just nerf Faction X.

Power creep the whole game, and the underlying systems eventually break.

They aren't busted, though. No nerfing is needed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Out of curiosity, if you (anyone) looks at the spell lists, what is the most powerful spell you could envision as being an ability for a martial which you could somehow justify as "non-magical"?

At a quick glance, I was thinking Dominate Person at 5th level. I could see a tier 3 or 4 martial with an Intimidate so overpowering that the target on a failed contested roll (instead of a saving throw) would basically do whatever, like the spell, for up to 1 minute.

So, what would you pick as your "limit"?

 

[Scribe]

Whereas pushing classes down is the shortest path to a boring game. Best to lift them up carefully and make a strong effort not to exceed the current top classes.

It would depend on where things stand.

Is it JUST Fighters that are underpowered? Then fine, buff Fighters.
Is it JUST Wizards that are overpowered? Then fine, nerf Wizards.

They aren't busted, though. No nerfing is needed.

Fair enough then, buff Fighters, but I'm not convinced that its a power level issue really.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, personal preference makes sense. But:

The fighter isn't just some "real dude." He grew up in a mythical world next to guys throwing fireballs and teleporting around. He can do and take HUGE amounts of damage to monsters that are much scarier than the RL has to offer. But jumping 31 feet without magic is a no-no?

Let's say it's "you," you get into the magical world with it's magical world reality. You start at 1st level (or even 0 level) but you advance (or die trying) - wouldn't you pick up a few extra tricks, learn a few things you might not learn in the RL as you advance in level? Thinking of fighters in the RL is a bit of a crutch!

Not every setting has people growing up next to people who sling fireballs and call down lightning from the heavens. That's another aspect of this question that needs to be considered. D&D is supposed to be able to handle many settings, and Eberron is only one of them.

 

[Cadence]

Two tangents that have always bothered me are:

Why are full casters (with no real combat training) going out in situations where nose to nose small scale combat will be regular? Why aren't the full caster ones back in the wizards school or doing research? It's not like Gandalf wasn't awesome enough with the sword to take on a freaking Balrog.

Why are the clerics that go out with all that armor and spells full casters? Why aren't there some even better casters back in the temples who have passed on the combat stuff.

So, getting back to the thread...

How do the fighters feel if the Wizards and Clerics going out with them are half-casters half-combat?

Or did this ship sail way back in 1e and 2e when (as @HammerMan and @DND_Reborn noted upthread) the balance was the M.User having to live through the first few levels being useless with no hitpoints?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure they have. I've already mentioned Fighters using superiority dice for skill checks like Persuasion etc. (It's in Tasha's).

Being better at persuasion is not even supernatural. Rogues do it all the time. I don't see how that has to do with what we're discussing.

 

[Yaarel]

Specifically regarding spells that use "force", like Tiny Hut, Wall of Force, and Force Cage:

In my view, ether=force. The four elemental planes are earth, water, air, and fire, and the "ether" in the ethereal plane is the "fifth element".

Ether equals force, including both mundane gravity and magical telekinesis.

The virtual body of a ghost, is made out of force. "Spirit" is made out of force. The spirit world − namely ethereal/fey/shadow − are likewise made out of frequencies of ether, whether positive energy, mixed, or negative.

A soul is made out of force. Ki is the same thing as using ones soul, ones lifeforce, to push things around.



The point is, it is a sensical worldview to use Willpower/Wisdom to save against and to bypass force effects.

This allows normal mundane heroes, because they are a conscious soul, to prevent force spells from becoming auto-wins.

 

[Mort]

Not every setting has people growing up next to people who sling fireballs and call down lightning from the heavens. That's another aspect of this question that needs to be considered. D&D is supposed to be able to handle many settings, and Eberron is only one of them.

It's not just Eberron. Adventure in Greyhawk, forgotten realms, ravenloft? You're near certainb to have a full caster in the group.

It doesn't matter how rare casters are in the setting. It matters how rare they are among PCs. And you'll get one in the party, unless there are rules preventing it