D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Minigiant]

I found the problem.

The push against Magic Items is so weird to me...

It's not a push against items.

The issue is you eventually need

• a speed item
• a flight item
• a melee attack item
• a ranged attack item
• a vision item
• a armor
• a resistances item
• several healing items

Now if the game says "DM you must give your warriors all of these as loot to use 75% of the monsters over CR 8" or does like 4e and let every fighter craft magic items or have magic shops, no problem.

But that isn't what D&D does and many people against the idea of guaranteed equipment.

 

[Cruentus]

Again these discussions are backward.
If the fighter is supposed to fight, lok at who he's fighting.
A CR 11 Horned devil has
<snip>

That would be 4 Level 11 fighters, right? A single CR 11 monster should be an 'average' fight for a party of 4, correct?

I'd give that fight to the 4 level 11 fighters, just using mundane equipment.

A lot of this debate depends heavily on how the game is run, the encounter distances, what other environmental factors are at play, etc.

I just finished up a campaign where all the characters were spell casters of some sort or another, or MC'd into casters. It was a total disaster. Every encounter, unless I specifically tailored it to counter their magic and other sundry abilities, was a cake walk. The pillars (explore, social)? Use a spell (detect magic, charm person, detect thoughts, etc.). Wear 'em down? "Don't waste spell slots on these, just use cantrips!" was the refrain.

I had one straight fighter who started in the campaign, but dropped out due to IRL stuff. He really enjoyed playing a straight fighter using the 5e playtest rules with superiority dice, and the choices that class/build option offered. So I let him try it out.

He also did a bang up job getting in the front of stuff, but was also the only one who bothered to approach social situations, engage with NPC's, and subsequently earn Inspiration for various things.

So "mundane" fighters can work as long as the campaign supports them, they have opportunity to do stuff outside of just swing swords, etc. At least in my experience. I also wasn't stingy with magic items/swords, but he kept giving them away, or burying them with important NPCs or nobles whose tombs the party ransacked. It was pretty hilarious.

 

[Cadence]

It's not a push against items.

The issue is you eventually need

• a speed item
• a flight item
• a melee attack item
• a ranged attack item
• a vision item
• a armor
• a resistances item
• several healing items

Now if the game says "DM you must give your warriors all of these as loot to use 75% of the monsters over CR 8" or does like 4e and let every fighter craft magic items or have magic shops, no problem.

But that isn't what D&D does and many people against the idea of guaranteed equipment.

Then you follow @ehren37 's advice and make them Thor by that level, and every fighter will have all of those powers without needing to any magic items (or spellcasters in the party to buff them) and be able to beat the devil.

I'm befuddled a bit why it's easier to change 5 editions of what a fighter is entirely, than to do a vague hint of magic item distribution like they had in the first 4 editions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again these discussions are backward.
If the fighter is supposed to fight, lok at who he's fighting.
A CR 11 Horned devil has

1. A flight speed
2. A speed higher than a mortal character
3. 3 immunities
4. 1 normal resistances
5. 3 special resistances
6. a 150ft ranged attack with no ammo
7. a poisonous melee attack
8. another strong melee attack
9. darkvision
10. immunity to magical darkness
11. telepathy
12. magical resistance
13. STR and CON over 20
14. all other scores over 11
15. proficiency in 4 saves

"I want fighter to be a normal grounded humaniod"
"How can a normal grounded humanoid bound to the edges of reality fight that?"
"Magic items"
"Are 4-5 reality breaking magic items guaranteed?"
"No"
"How can a normal grounded humanoid bound to the edges of reality fight that?"
"He takes advantage of the devil's infernal hubris"
"Oh. The DM runs the devil like an idiot. He tries to duke it out with the greatsword specced fighter instead of out shooting them at range."

Well, make those magic items guaranteed, like was suggested above.

Also, I think its pretty clear that in combat, an appropriately leveled fighter can fight that devil, without any additional supernatural abilities.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Then you follow @ehren37 's advice and make them Thor by that level, and every fighter will have all of those powers without needing to any magic items (or spellcasters in the party to buff them) and be able to beat the devil.

I'm befuddled a bit why it's easier to change 5 editions of what a fighter is entirely, than to do a vague hint of magic item distribution like they had in the first 4 editions.

They need to be part of the class is the issue, and not up to DM fiat. So either the fighter gets more items, or items are better when used by a fighter.

Lets face it, those fighting to keep the fighter down are generally old guard players, and old guard DM's generally hate the concept of sharing control.

 

[Scribe]

It's not a push against items.

The issue is you eventually need

• a speed item
• a flight item
• a melee attack item
• a ranged attack item
• a vision item
• a armor
• a resistances item
• several healing items

Now if the game says "DM you must give your warriors all of these as loot to use 75% of the monsters over CR 8" or does like 4e and let every fighter craft magic items or have magic shops, no problem.

But that isn't what D&D does and many people against the idea of guaranteed equipment.

I dont think you need all that. You 'need' a few items, and a party. Its a party based game. The idea that all classes should be able to just be effective solo in all situations is WILDLY out of sync with how I've seen this game my entire life.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Question for you then:

Why should the fighter need magic items to be effective while for the wizard, they're just gravy?

I much prefer to have the need for magic items be lessened so I can concentrate on interesting magic items that do cool/interesting stuff rather than items that just "prop up" the fighter. I hate the "need" for plussed items, weapons or armor - magic items should be fun and interesting not a necessary crutch.

People want fighters to do cool things. Magic items let you do cool things. No pluses required.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Boy, I take an hour to drive home and three more pages of posts!

It's not a push against items.

The issue is you eventually need

• a speed item
• a flight item
• a melee attack item
• a ranged attack item
• a vision item
• a armor
• a resistances item
• several healing items

Now if the game says "DM you must give your warriors all of these as loot to use 75% of the monsters over CR 8" or does like 4e and let every fighter craft magic items or have magic shops, no problem.

But that isn't what D&D does and many people against the idea of guaranteed equipment.

Just give the fighters bows and the devil will be a pincushion. If it lands, they melee it. What is the issue really?

I mean, so much depends on the scenario's set up, but honestly no PC needs to match every foe they might encounter.

 

[Cadence]

They need to be part of the class is the issue, and not up to DM fiat. So either the fighter gets more items, or items are better when used by a fighter.

Lets face it, those fighting to keep the fighter down are generally old guard players, and old guard DM's generally hate the concept sharing control.

Or they were old enough to have V&V or Champions (and a half dozen after that) if that was their particular itch?

 

[Scribe]

Why should the fighter need magic items to be effective while for the wizard, they're just gravy?

Because if the Wizard is out of resources, and comes up against anything remotely threatening, it should fall on its face and die.

I'm serious, the issue here fundamentally is with the game (5e) and how it has shifted towards this weird concept that classes should not be strained for influence, resources, or choice.