Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Bill Zebub]

And if it's problematic for some, so what? I don't mean that to sound flippant, but there's almost always going to be a small group of people who find something problematic. It seems fairly sensible that if a lot of people find something problematic we should push for change. But if only a small percentage of people find something problematic what then? From where I'm sitting, I don't care if the samurai is reductive or historically inaccurate any more than I care about the Druid in D&D or the knight in Pendragon. So when someone tells me the samurai is reductive and historically inaccurate I can agree, but what then? Is it still okay for me to enjoy the character class? Is it okay for a game published in the United States to include such a samurai?

It seems to me your fixation on the samurai, and the number of people who find it problematic, and your question about whether it's ok for you to enjoy such a class (short answer: yes), suggests you don't actually understand the issues with OA.

I mean, ok, I'm sure you can find somebody, somewhere, saying the popularity of the samurai is a problem. But even in this thread it has been explained multiple times what the larger concerns about OA are. And it's not the popularity of the samurai.

Here's how I personally see the issue:

1. There's a staggering amount of racism in the U.S. against asian, or asian-american, people. (And the following line of reasoning applies to all other groups facing discrimination, ethnic or otherwise.)

2. So called "positive" stereotypes (e.g., asians are good at math) seem harmless, or even beneficial, but all stereotypes support the (false) notion that there are correlations between ethnicities and genetic proclivities, and that belief is dangerous. E.g., if you are willing to believe that asians are genetically good at math, you're also more likely to believe they are genetically not creative. (My 8th grade history teacher, Mrs. Hosman....1921-2005...actually said that "the Japanese are like monkeys: they are really good at copying others." I was not sufficiently shocked at the time.)

3. There are a number of elements of OA which propagate stereotypes, including the "exotic" trope.

4. OA also, as has been mentioned repeatedly in just this thread, simultaneously bases Kara Tur off of all of Asia, and inserts Japanese culture into the entirety. Given that much of the 20th century involved Japan trying to do exactly that, often very brutally, and that there are many people who have first hand memory of those atrocities, and even more people whose parents and grandparents were affected, this is...shockingly insensitive.

5. While quite a few people of Asian descent think this all is shrug-worthy, there are also a number of people who seem genuinely bothered by this, and feel that it demonstrates a generally dismissive/disrespectful attitude toward their experience.

6. In general I think it's more noble to try to not do/say/write hurtful things, and I also am all for making as many people as possible feel welcome in gaming.

7. Although I think I care about these problems, in general I don't do much about it if it involves personal sacrifice. I don't send my kids to public school. I just bought a house in a town where housing costs are a serious problem, just because I thought it would be fun to live here. I would vote to increase taxes on my income bracket, but in the meantime I'm not giving away that money. And so on. I feel a little uneasy about some of my choices, but honestly I'm most focused on giving my own kids as many advantages as possible.

8. But here are people asking me to sacrifice something utterly negligible: they are asking me to not support the kind of stereotypes presented in OA. (And to re-think orcs and drow, and frown on chainmail bikinis, etc.). I don't really know that any of this will make any difference, but my response is, "Ok, fine. If the sacrifice you are asking is that I very slightly adjust my make-believe game about elves and dragons, THAT I can do." And I'm kind of ashamed that's all I'm really doing.

And it just astounds me that there are people who aren't even willing to do that much, without kicking and screaming and demanding peer-reviewed data and predicting parade-of-horribles consequences and basically looking for any excuse they can find to deny there's a problem. And if they don't have all the advantages and privileges that I do, but are members of a group that have and do suffer discrimination, I find it even more astounding.

I honestly have a hard time finding a generous explanation for that behavior.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, I don't disagree. I created a fantasy Japan, because it's what I know - I mean I know lots of nuance and put it into the setting. I don't have nuanced knowledge of China, nor any other part of Asia. I know as much as most westerners know of the rest of Asia, but that's not nuance. Regarding the oddball (at least from a western point of view) folklore of Japan... Kaidan is a horror setting, and I presented such things as kappa with a sense of horror, despite being a turtle-like frog-like being that has almost a comical aspect. My kappa have more an air of something to fear rather than to laugh at, even as a player character race. It's still odd, but have a sense of being less than a comical character.

And it's very well done too.

But, yeah, the issue of Asia=Japan has a lot of historical reasons. Pop culture being a huge one. Hollywood bought into the whole ninja/samurai schtick for a very long time. Power Rangers and Sailor Moon. Going all the way back to Godzilla and Gatchaman. Most of us who grew up watching American TV, saw "Fantasy Japan" on TV far more than "Fantasy China" or "Fantasy India". Never minding places like Korea or the Phillipines. Outside of MASH, has anything referenced Korea?

Granted, now, we're seeing a HUGE explosion of K-pop and other Korean culture stuff being exported. My Netflix cue is full of stuff out of Korea. Some of it pretty damn good. I mean, Squid Game was pretty darn cool.

Rolling that back into the 80's or even the late 90's/early Oughts when the original OA and the 3e OA were being written, and it's not really all that surprising to see "Fantasy Asia=Fantasy Japan". Doesn't excuse it, mind you, but, it's not exactly shocking either.

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm fascinated with Indian culture and religion, for example, and would love to visit a setting in such an analog, done well. I lack the nuance needed to give it any kind of justice, myself, thus wouldn't take on the task, as I don't qualify. I'm not strictly a Japanophile, just having a deep love of my heritage, a love of folklore and an avid gamer - I've simply absorbed Japan more than the others, not for the same reasons as the rest of the west. And I don't mean to keep plugging Kaidan, but it's my closest link to this thread, because both OA and Ravenloft were in mind as I conceived it. Kaidan is unique and not really either of those, just some inspiration.

 

[gamerprinter]

While the samurai were all trained with the weapons of the occupation and served a master, the Bushi are a social caste, moreso than the imperial military. The managerial class of society in feudal Japan - the accountants, the lawyers, the politicians; the professional class were the samurai. Certainly the actual military were samurai, aside from conscripted fighters. There is a hierarchy within ranks of the samurai. The hatamoto bannermen of the Shogun, although considered highest ranking, had a political animosity to other samurai, that led to actual armed conflicts between them. Jizamurai, on the other hand, were farmer samurai. Literally a commoner who performed admirably as a conscript in a war for their lord, and was granted samurai status, but without the pay a lord provides his samurai. They live on the wage of a farmer (60% taxed), are required to own the daisho (katana and wakizashi), possess all various "uniforms" - specific colors of garments, for specific social events - which is expensive, especially to a farmer. Technically, the lowest rank of samurai is the street cop - the police of feudal Japan were samurai (outside of the redlight/theater districts of cities which are policed by yakuza, believe it or not). So my perception of samurai is waaay different than some of the comments in this thread about them. They aren't as romantic and admirable as you seem to think...

Unlike laws between nobles and commoners in the west, in Japan, samurai were expected to know the law and obey them. Punishments to samurai were harsher than punishments to commoners. A commoner that commits arson is beaten, usually killed, but not always. A samurai who commits arson is burned alive.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Rpgs yes. I guess I was thinking specifically in the D&D sphere.

I think Louis Porter Jr, put something to a while back

 

[MGibster]

How many offended folks is the bar for something to be problematic? You assume it's a "small group" regarding the samurai . . . .

I wouldn't say it's a bar but it's certainly a factor. Like the saying goes, you can't please everyone and you will almost always find some people unhappy with the way something is presented. And, yes, I assume it's a small group because, like I said, this is the version of the samurai as presented to us by Japanese movies.

It's not a "small group". Is it a majority? A large minority? And again, where do we draw the line before we acknowledge the problem?

I wish I knew the answer to this but I don't so it's something I wrestle with.

 

[MGibster]

It seems to me your fixation on the samurai, and the number of people who find it problematic, and your question about whether it's ok for you to enjoy such a class (short answer: yes), suggests you don't actually understand the issues with OA.

I wouldn't call it a fixation, but okay. And, yes, I understand the issues with OA and find most of the complaints to be valid.

I mean, ok, I'm sure you can find somebody, somewhere, saying the popularity of the samurai is a problem. But even in this thread it has been explained multiple times what the larger concerns about OA are. And it's not the popularity of the samurai.

Yes. I get that. I've acknowledged that more than once and I'll acknowledge it again.

But here are people asking me to sacrifice something utterly negligible: they are asking me to not support the kind of stereotypes presented in OA. (And to re-think orcs and drow, and frown on chainmail bikinis, etc.).

And I don't think I'm one of those people. I've repeatedly said that I recognize the problematic aspects of OA. But while I broadly agree with the criticisms of OA, it doesn't follow that I agree with all the criticisms.

 

[Bedrockgames]

8. But here are people asking me to sacrifice something utterly negligible: they are asking me to not support the kind of stereotypes presented in OA. (And to re-think orcs and drow, and frown on chainmail bikinis, etc.). I don't really know that any of this will make any difference, but my response is, "Ok, fine. If the sacrifice you are asking is that I very slightly adjust my make-believe game about elves and dragons, THAT I can do." And I'm kind of ashamed that's all I'm really doing.

And it just astounds me that there are people who aren't even willing to do that much, without kicking and screaming and demanding peer-reviewed data and predicting parade-of-horribles consequences and basically looking for any excuse they can find to deny there's a problem. And if they don't have all the advantages and privileges that I do, but are members of a group that have and do suffer discrimination, I find it even more astounding.

Will try to respond to your other points later as you took the time to lay them out clearly and I think they warrant a reaction. I just wanted get to this one while I have a few moments. Hopefully my thoughts on this are well organized I think part of the issue here is, it is easy for someone on my side to read your post and do so in bad faith or uncharitably. But I also think this swings the other way. I am sure both sides of this discussion have a small number of jerks who either are just interested in controlling art or exploiting sensitivity to self aggrandize, or as you say people on my side of the discussion who just want to be horrible....but I think that is probably a very narrow sliver of the people involved. Most of the posters seem genuinely concerned about issues arising out of this on both ends. And it is leading them to different places. What to you is utterly negligible, to others is a very serious issue of free creativity and expression. And it isn't rooted in a desire to promote bad stereotypes, it is more rooted in disagreements over what content constitutes that, how pristine content needs to be, and whether it is okay for things written in the past that do have those things to exist and to be understood within the context of their time. There is also concern about problems being misidentified, exaggerated, etc. I am not saying you have to agree with all these things. I just think what is really going on is a genuine disagreement over some very core assumptions (and not a disagreement over whether a particular group of people should be treated well and should be made welcome). A lot of this debate, I think to many of us, rings a lot like "won't someone think about the children", where changes are demanded by a small group of people who are bothered, but the concern is, are those changes really improving anything or are they leading to less creativity, less interesting concepts, etc.

I can give a perfect example outside this topic: mob cinema. My grandfather used to get Italian American magazine and they would constantly have ads or articles in there condemning movies about the mafia or games about the mob, excuse they thought it promoted a harmful stereotype about Italians. But my grandfather loved mafia movies. I love mafia movies. Some of the greatest artistic achievements by Italian Americans relate to things like mafia-inspired novels, mafia films, etc. If the small group of Italian Americans who opposed that stuff got their way, you might not have Mean Streets, The Godfather or Goodfellas. And that was all being done in the name of something doing 'harm'. But I think the issue is, these things are usually more complicated than one side being super evil and one side being super righteous. Generally I come down in favor of free artistic expression.

 

[GreyLord]

A few of us do keep recommending the Asians Represent podcast, true. But the podcast shouldn't be seen as the definitive resource on what is or isn't wrong with Oriental Adventures . . . but it is a good start, it is informative, and it's a good way to start getting a feel for how some in the Asian community view these types of work.

And . . . there's not a lot of other resources out there to point you towards. At least, not that I'm aware of. Doesn't mean it's just the folks of Asians Represent that have issues with OA, they're just the first to do a detailed analysis of it. Again, to my knowledge.

It would be nice if someone did a summary of the points they raise in each episode . . . . but until some enterprising blogger does so, we've got the podcast itself.

Each episode is long, close to 2 hours. They only get through a few pages each episode. Their conversation wanders, they aren't very focused, not all of them are familiar with D&D (not to the level many super-fans on ENWorld are), and some of the panelists do tend to jump to conclusions. It's a messy podcast, but the issue is messy and complex itself, so . . . .

This isn't an issue where you'll find easy, black-and-white answers. I get less upset with folks who disagree over how severely problematic OA is, than I do with folks who just outright dismiss the experiences and voices of those who do see it as a severely flawed work.

There ARE other sources. I've been trying to say that when I've made statements in the thread.

The PROBLEM is that they do NOT AGREE with what the youtube videos are talking about...and I think because of that NO ONE here that agrees with those youtubers wants to actually LOOK at the issues or the actual items in them.

It is a multi-faceted issue...and much more complex. MANY would see those youtubers as actually PROMOTING the ideals of racists that want to ERASE Asian culture itself, OR ACT as a proxy in the tensions between the Americas and China (and other parts of Asia) currently.

OA criticism is merely a symptom of a MUCH LARGER issue that is currently ongoing within the Asian-American community at large. Many of the younger generation are jumping on a bandwagon that many of the older generation see as unnecessary or even frivolous. AT times, not only do they not agree, they refuse to go along with the younger generation's insistence of things. Not all of the younger generation is on the bandwagon either (respect of elders is actually still a thing in some societies). The older you get, the less of that generation are on the bandwagon (so, you have some elderly that are with the entire protest movement, but it's far smaller than the percentage of the youth).

A LOT of it is seen that the younger generation simply does NOT understand what it means to be Chinese, or Japanese, or any sort of individual from East-Asia. Even those who visit just do not get the culture. They are..."Very American" to put it lightly. Ironically, this means that the greatest amount of discrimination they may actually get is NOT from fellow Americans, but from other East Asians if they go to those nations from which their heritage derives. They do not see...eye to eye.

The criticism of OA is just a small indicator of a much wider disparity among the community presently, one that is NOT hard to find or read about if one is actually seeking to UNDERSTAND the greater underlying issues in the debate.

I imagine in the Americas, eventually, the younger generations opinions will attain a bigger foothold and become the dominant opinion, but it will still be awhile because they will have to wait for the older generations (The ones that actually came here and paved he way for them, made the sacrifices, and put down the foundations) die off.

Part of it is trying to find their OWN identity in the Americas and determine how that identity will be and how they will work with it. They aren't truly part of their ancestoral nation's heritage anymore and aren't really accepted back into those nations as full individuals, but at the same time there is an inherent racist element in America that also acts against them. The younger generation is forging their way into creating an identity that hopefully, will make them equal to others eventually. HOW this is done and how they approach it is different from individual to individual. It is still being forged. EVENTUALLY I think those like the people appearing on the youtube video series will be the ones who determine what this identity IS...but it's still a generation or two off.

I cannot do it justice (even my description above is FAR too simple of an explanation, it is FAR too complex of an issue to really discuss in detail here) on the various aspects and complexities of the many and varied views on the issues. There are so many different aspects and views on it that there is no one voice that I could point to and say...this is it...listen to this.

So, yes, there are those that will complain about things like OA and they will find similar voices to their own to agree with them. They are a SINGLE voice on an issue which has dozens if not hundreds of other voices and views. It's not as simple as simply saying....listen to this youtube video series and you will have a foundation. It doesn't give you a foundation in squat. It doesn't give you a good start...in fact, it may actually give you a FALSE start if you are using it as the foundation of where to start. It tells you ONE POINT of view of dozens, many which disagree STRONGLY with the ideas that youtube video series is presenting. It doesn't really address the ACTUAL issues behind why they are criticizing OA, even while utilizing OA and other items as tools to promote their viewpoints. The actual ISSUES are what are the point in some ways, but most won't even KNOW what they are if they just use those videos as a "starting point."

There are many different variants and views. Some which may align somewhat with the views of the video series, some which agree with some points, disagree with others, and some which are the opposite of what the series is promoting. Going in and thinking that these guys are a good start to understanding the issue is a mistake from the beginning. It explains THEIR viewpoints, which is ONE PART of the entire equation, but really ignores the views of many others who do not agree with them on the very basis of the argument they are pushing (which is a LOT bigger than OA. OA is simply a tool that is being used in a small part of it to sort of push their viewpoint on the issue).

 

[Voadam]

Rpgs yes. I guess I was thinking specifically in the D&D sphere.

There was the free official Dragon Fist AD&D 2e variant game by Chris Pramas. It was late 2e and only online but fairly fantastic. It was a fantasy Chinese martial arts setting inspired by a lot of Honk Kong martial arts and fantasy/monster/ghost movies so a lot of evil sorcerers, hopping vampires, and everybody gets some cool D&D martial arts.

Very deliberately and explicitly Fantasy China martial arts action movie tropes heavy.

Zero samurai or feudal Japanese honor overlay.

It was a little higher powered than baseline D&D so a bit like 2e Diablo.

It also flipped THACO to an attack bonus against ascending AC in D&D before 3e.

It used to be free from WotC's website but I doubt they still host it. Worth checking out if you can find it.