D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[DND_Reborn]

WoTC HAS made some movements in the direction of giving the fighter "more to do" outside of combat, even if they are baby steps (such as the new maneuvers in Tasha's) because it seems that IS what the "new blood" wants.

Unfortunately WotC has also made movements towards making Fighters less by including Fighting Styles as a feat. Oh, wait, never mind, they screwed over Sorcerers and Warlock as well so I guess it's ok.

 

[FrozenNorth]

One of my characters has "a lot of candy" on her character sheet.

So, does a lot of candy encumber the character, or make her hyper enough to jump further?

 

[FrozenNorth]

If a fighter wants to play the tank properly and intercept threats, he has to take Sentinel, and he has the opportunity to do so.

I’m hearing a lot of “has to” with respect to fighters, each of which has a steep opportunity cost. To do his job, he “has to” take Sentinel. He “needs” specific magical items to increase his speed, to fly, to detect invisible, to damage opponents that are resistant to non-magical damage (at least two, for melee and ranged), which he spends his limited attunement slots on. If he wants to contribute outside combat, he needs to spend feats. None of this is easy to respec on days when there are fewer combats.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It isn't "laughable" when those other casters have other features, such as wildshape, channel divinity, metamagic, invocations, and inspiration--none of which a wizard has.

Anyway, I'm done with ya on this. Have a good one and cheers!

Actually, just remembered that an 11th level wizard has access to more than 15 spells. He prepares 15, but he can also cast all his ritual spells without preparing them. That means he actually has access to more like 18 different spells. Devoting 4 spells to attacking different saves is a ridiculously small portion of his loadout.

 

[HammerMan]

At 20th level low level spells and rituals are nearly worthless and do far less than that 20th level fighter is doing.

hidus laughter can stop an enemy in there tracks at 20th level or 1st
shield can negate a hit at 20th level or 1st
charm person can turn an encounter at 1st or 20th level...
all of them are first level

blur grants disadvantage on attacks. that is a 2nd level spell

At 20th level the wizard has 12 slots of 4th level or higher, which for medium to hard CR 20+ encounters are what you want to use.

counterspell dispel haste fireball lightningbolt are all3rd level spells and all helpful the entire campaign

At 4 a fight, you're done in 3 fights. With Arcane Recovery you can eek in half of a 4th fight. So 3 and a half fights and you're done with the vast majority of your combat usefulness. That leaves 2.5 to 4.5 fights where you are very subpar to the fighter.

you are NEVER a subpar fighter reread what I wrote. the damn SoS 1st level spell can be used at will at 20th level. (17th I think)

So go ahead and nova yourself out of half the fights. My fighter is going to truck along and catch back up at the end. Without magic items.

lol SO you just assume those umpteen high level spells are cast first? what if the first round of every encounter you use a cantrip while you plan what big shanangins spell you will end the encounter with> the fact that 5% of the time you have to defualt to doing half the damage of the fighter is meaningless when 80% of the time you can be doing better (other 15% is about equal)

Basic math dude. 4d10 is an average of 22 points of damage. 2d6+15 is an average of 22 points of damage. Then the fighter swings 3 more times. 1st and 2nd level spells are as bad or worse than scaling cantrips, since they don't scale. The wizard is being blown out of the water.

damage causeing spells are on average slightly worse at 1st and 2nd level then cantrips... but you can load up with charm, laughter, blur, and shield

 

[HammerMan]

Well in my High games the martials and rogues have plenty of shenanigans they can play with high level items or just thier own intelligence. Had a rogue in one party drug the mage, tie him up and had his guild torture him for about a week because he was bad for business.

and what in this equastion is something the player could not do if he had access to 1st-9th level shenanagins?

And a mage casting some big spell is no different than a cleric doing it or a rogue killing the king, or the high cleric, or the fighter starting a war with the local thieves guild and completely derailing the party and DM's plans.

except the mage and cleric (all spell casters) can start a war, kill a king AND have those spells. "Anything you can do I can do better"

If your powerful mages aren't afraid of kings, nobles and high level , Clerics, Paladins, and rogues your not a very good DM.

yup me and every DM that complains suck... so maybe the game should help us more

no one can watch thier back every minute of every day.

not a fighter not a rouge not a ranger so why call out wizard for this...

for those Dm's that only want to run dungeon crawls and don't let the campaign world impact things, find a different system, your never going to be happy with D&D or pathfinder.

lol... wizards and clerics don't excel at just dungeon crawls... they can charm they can teleport they can fly

 

[HammerMan]

A different role in the game? If you wan to be more of a support PC, you have more feats than other classes. Take the leadership feat and give everyone temp HP. Maybe take the protection fighting style so you can protect allies. Fighters aren't bards, but neither is any class that isn't a bard.

If you want to open locks, take a background that gives you lock picking. Or just bash the door down, it can't be any noisier than knock which is audible up to 300 feet away.

Or that the caster can cast on the fighter if the situation calls for it. I mean you could give the fighter the ability to fly if you want, doesn't mean it would fit the theme of a mundane fighter that's just really good at fighting. In the other thread people are saying that an MCU character that matches would likely be Captain America from the MCU movies. Can Cap jump 60 feet with a running start? No.

Huh? It's called plate mail. Take the defensive fighting style and a shield to get AC 23 before magic. If you're dex based consider defensive fighting style and two weapon along with defensive duelist. In either case your AC will better than the wizard. Then again your fighter can have double the HP of that wizard, even if they do get hit more it's not a big deal. I don't see why it's a big deal.

so your entire argument comes down to "I want to ignore giving them options"

 

[HammerMan]

Maybe because you're the party pack mule i.e. the one who's strong enough to carry them?

oh yes nothing says "important peoples caddy" like being the carry person

Some other useful things you - or any Fighter - might want to keep handy: whetstone, armour care materials,

um armor can't be damaged in game 9 out of 10 times and magic armor 99 out of 100 can't... my low level warriors normally have this stuff

some sort of missile weapon and ammo,

some times I do, I also listed these

 

[HammerMan]

No, but he could and did plan for cheaters; which is what you'd be doing here.

you call it cheating... but making a dungeon just to mess with your players is WAY worse of the socil contract breaking

 

[Oofta]

so your entire argument comes down to "I want to ignore giving them options"

I don't want them to be supernatural unless that's the archetype I've chosen. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'm not going to do it again, ever.