Is a Kickstarter for this Epic Bestiary book a good idea?

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there!

Hello again!

I don't have a problem with the shipping delays, and I understand the risks associated with crowdfunding in general. That's not really a problem for me. (I waited months and months to get my copy of The One Ring 2E, and my Twisted Taverns stuff finally showed up this afternoon after multiple delays. My excitement and satisfaction with the final products was not diminished in the least.)

Okay, cool.

No, I'm disappointed in Kickstarter's decision to use blockchain. While they've since walked back their original announcement, I'm not supporting any Kickstarter projects until we get a hard "no" from them, in writing. I don't want to derail this thread with yet another rant about NFTs, though...so that's all I'll say about that.

Ah right, I understand.

If you decide to fund this project through a different platform, please post about it here! I'll be one of your first backers.

I appreciate the support. I'll try to make the most epic book possible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

OK, well if your project goal is primarily non-commercial,

Well I wouldn't say non-commercial entirely. I'd say the first priority is making the best book possible, then hopefully making enough of a profit to fund another book next year. So this book is coming out regardless of whether I only sell 10 copies or not. Future books would likely require I see at least a tiny bit of a profit.

Kickstarter does seem the best approach.

Someone below makes a good point, in that Kickstarter is more suitable for those with an online presence.

Make sure your funding target covers all production & distribution costs after Kickstarter's cut and taxes, while also being low enough to incite interest,

If I was doing a Kickstarter then I'd think $50-60 was the most I could charge for a 320 page hardcover without pricing myself out of the market.

and leave space for plenty of stretch goals which should already have been done too

I have ideas for several stretch goals but I'm not sure how financially viable they are with limited backers. If I set the Kickstarter at $5000 which is roughly where I am guessing 100 backers might get me (with both pdf & book options), then it might need to be $15k, $25k, $35k etc. for stretch goals.

- one thing I've learned is that successful Kickstarter projects do absolutely everything they can do, before the campaign launches.

I'll have as much ready as possible before I start any crowdfund.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy cavetroll!

My understanding is that kickstarter is only worth it if you have an established internet presence such that you can get enough eyeballs over there.

That's part of the worry, plus Epic books are a niche as it is.

I have a question though, lets say you have the quality of the D&D books, hardcover, which is fantastic quality. Then you have the drivethru hardcover quality.

How does the lulu self publishing quality compare to them? Much better than drivethru?

Unknown, but using their calculator each printed book would cost $70 which is even more than Drivethru for which I am looking at almost $55.

So far the best two printers I can find are Mixam (UK) and Print Ninja (US). Below 500 copies Mixam are the best. After 750 copies Print Ninja are the best and their price per book keeps getting lower and lower the more you print.

I switched on max hardcover settings (all the bells and whistles) and:

250 copies from Mixam = $33 each, from Print Ninja = $48 each
500 copies from Mixam = $22 each, from Print Ninja = $26 each
750 copies from Mixam = $21 each, from Print Ninja = $19 each

Both do Print Fulfilment (they will post the books for me).

 

[cavetroll]

Unknown, but using their calculator each printed book would cost $70 which is even more than Drivethru for which I am looking at almost $55.

What? When I used the pricing calculator 100 pages 8.5" x 11" (big!) color premium glossy hardcover was $27 cost. 200 pages was $45.
What is driving up your price?

 

[dave2008]

Can't you do both? Put it up for an initial run on Kickstarter offer PDF and POD from Drivethru (many RPG kickstarters do this) for one price and then Premium print versions that are Kickstarter only rewards. I don't really see why it has to be one or the other.

 

[dave2008]

Do a marketing campaign, prior to the launch of the KS with a link to a coming soon KS. LevelUp did this and they had 8,000+/- followers of their KS before they officially launched.

2C Gaming hit some pretty high numbers for their Epic Legacy Series for 5e - eventually, see below. However, there first epic project failed to fund. However, they revamped it, add some better art, did some more marketing, published so smaller projects and tried and and have had great success since.

Epic Legacy - Core Rulebook: $9,205 - Failed Kickstarter 2016
Epic Legacy - Core Rulebook: $23,324 Successful Kickstarter 2019
Epic Legacy - Campaign Codex: $58,770 Successful Kickstarter 2021
Epic Legacy - Hero's Handbook: $80,836 Kickstarter Successful Kickstarter 2022
Epic Legacy - Tome of Titans: $114,323 Successful Kickstarter2022
Epic Legacy - Tome of Titans 2: $81,802 ongoing Kickstarter 2022

I think you are a better designer than what I have seen from 2C gaming so what you need to be similarly successful is good marketing and equivalent art.

All 2C Gaming Kickstarters

 

[Upper_Krust]

What? When I used the pricing calculator 100 pages 8.5" x 11" (big!) color premium glossy hardcover was $27 cost. 200 pages was $45.
What is driving up your price?

Try 320 pages. Though its possible there is a higher price in the UK, they were quoting me over £50 which is almost $70

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dave2008 buddy!

Can't you do both? Put it up for an initial run on Kickstarter offer PDF and POD from Drivethru (many RPG kickstarters do this) for one price and then Premium print versions that are Kickstarter only rewards. I don't really see why it has to be one or the other.

I think 2 wildly different print quality versions would only hurt things.

Here is my current thinking (I'll just lay it out there) for my three tiers:

PDF: $25 (its bigger than Ascension and the Epic Bestiary so I think that is justified).
Print version (+PDF): $55
Print version; signed and with the slipcase (+PDF): $85

Shipping probably depends on which fulfillment service I use and with a low run that is likely Mixam in the UK. I'll have to ask them but lets say $15/20/25 depending on where in the world you are.

$5000 = successfully funded (based on 100 backers: Guesstimate 40% pdf, 50% Print + pdf, 10% signed version + pdf).
Stretch Goals at $15k, $25k, $35k, $45k

Looking at Mixam, there seems to be a sweet spot at 300 copies where the cost drops by $8 per copy to around $25. Printing 300 will cost me $7500 so technically I am taking a hit (assuming I only raise $5000) but I will take a gamble thinking I can sell them over the course of the following 12 months...I'm an optimist at heart.

Mixam fulfill the backers (except for the signed + slipcase tier which I will obviously have to do myself).

After which the PDF becomes available via Drivethru, anyone else wanting a copy of the print version will either have to go on Amazon (assuming Mixam has that option - I know Print Ninja does) or possibly get one of the remaining copies from me on ebay.

Assuming I make a small profit at some point, I'll start another book.

Does that sound reasonable or is there something obvious I am missing?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Do a marketing campaign, prior to the launch of the KS with a link to a coming soon KS. LevelUp did this and they had 8,000+/- followers of their KS before they officially launched.

Yes that would be beneficial, but might be better after I have some preview material available. If I can get 100+ people interested in this we are good to go. I presume Drivethru RPG have a way for me to contact all customers of my PDFs via email so that would reach a few thousand (whether or not they are interested is another story I imagine though).

2C Gaming hit some pretty high numbers for their Epic Legacy Series for 5e - eventually, see below.

Yes I glanced at a few of their Kickstarters - I do like that shimmering purple dragon cover animation on their latest project - very snazzy.

However, there first epic project failed to fund. However, they revamped it, add some better art, did some more marketing, published so smaller projects and tried and and have had great success since.

Epic Legacy - Core Rulebook: $9,205 - Failed Kickstarter 2016
Epic Legacy - Core Rulebook: $23,324 Successful Kickstarter 2019
Epic Legacy - Campaign Codex: $58,770 Successful Kickstarter 2021
Epic Legacy - Hero's Handbook: $80,836 Kickstarter Successful Kickstarter 2022
Epic Legacy - Tome of Titans: $114,323 Successful Kickstarter2022
Epic Legacy - Tome of Titans 2: $81,802 ongoing Kickstarter 2022

Interesting, very obvious steady progression, if they keep that going Tome of Titans 2 should hit around $140k.

I think you are a better designer than what I have seen from 2C gaming

Thanks for the kind words.

I haven't looked too closely at their Epic work (yet*) because I didn't want it influencing my writing. I do know they have the same sort of +10 Mythic Levels that Pathfinder did.

*Even though I fully support all Epic Level content creators - so best of luck to them.

They seem to have about 25 people working on this latest book, you would wonder why they are suggesting 17 months before its finished; especially given how much they seem to have already shown.

so what you need to be similarly successful is good marketing and equivalent art.

Well certainly the marketing I'll have to work on.

As regards the art about 90% my interior art is black and white. So while I am confident my colour pieces are on a par with their art I'm guessing each of their 20+ (IIRC) monster entries in this new book has at least one colour illustration (part of my stretch goal plans is to have more of the interior art finished in colour).

All 2C Gaming Kickstarters

I appreciate the help buddy.

 

[dave2008]

Hey dave2008 buddy!



I think 2 wildly different print quality versions would only hurt things.

Here is my current thinking (I'll just lay it out there) for my three tiers:

PDF: $25 (its bigger than Ascension and the Epic Bestiary so I think that is justified).
Print version (+PDF): $55
Print version; signed and with the slipcase (+PDF): $85

Shipping probably depends on which fulfillment service I use and with a low run that is likely Mixam in the UK. I'll have to ask them but lets say $15/20/25 depending on where in the world you are.

$5000 = successfully funded (based on 100 backers: Guesstimate 40% pdf, 50% Print + pdf, 10% signed version + pdf).
Stretch Goals at $15k, $25k, $35k, $45k

Looking at Mixam, there seems to be a sweet spot at 300 copies where the cost drops by $8 per copy to around $25. Printing 300 will cost me $7500 so technically I am taking a hit (assuming I only raise $5000) but I will take a gamble thinking I can sell them over the course of the following 12 months...I'm an optimist at heart.

Mixam fulfill the backers (except for the signed + slipcase tier which I will obviously have to do myself).

After which the PDF becomes available via Drivethru, anyone else wanting a copy of the print version will either have to go on Amazon (assuming Mixam has that option - I know Print Ninja does) or possibly get one of the remaining copies from me on ebay.

Assuming I make a small profit at some point, I'll start another book.

Does that sound reasonable or is there something obvious I am missing?

That seems perfectly reasonable to me! Though I think when you release it on Drivethru you could offer a POD version.