D&D General An alternative to XP

[Charlaquin]

Could you elaborate on some of those obvious benefits and drawbacks? I'm drawing a blank.

Well, the benefits of XP, which I would argue are not obvious (or, to be more precise, not apparent - they’re easy enough to understand theoretically, harder to directly observe their impact on the experience) are that it provides a highly effective incentive structure, and that it gives players a clear indicator of progress towards advancement, which is deeply viscerally satisfying. The former is I think more obvious but also more controversial - I’ve seen people say “I don’t want to incentivize the players towards or away from anything in particular,” and while that viewpoint is very strange to me, it’s a perfectly legitimate preference to have. The latter benefit I think is far less apparent, but also far more impactful. You may not notice much direct benefit from the progress bar effect, but your brain will.

As for the drawbacks, they’re quite apparent. Math and bookkeeping. The DM has to do math to work out XP awards, and the players have to keep track of the numbers. Both things people don’t love doing. But, in my opinion, both are pretty minor inconveniences despite being very apparent, and well worth it for the benefits mentioned above.

 

[Ovinomancer]

For me, it's "for best results, remove XP entirely."

And, as we discussed, you still moved the triggers for leveling, you just removed the player facing information system (XP) when you did so. So, in talking about removing XP you're doing really only one thing, removing information from the player's side of the game. Again, as we discussed in that other thread, this can be absolutely for the good, but, as with any change, it should be considered. Then you have the changing the incentives. What you described doing removed the immediate feedback information channel from the players (THIS action gets THIS reward incentive loop) and then changed to "I, the GM, think they've done enough" as the incentive structure. That incentive structure moves the players' incentives from specific actions in game (kill monsters, get XP) to a more general "follow what the GM wants." Again, as I said before, this can absolutely lead to good outcomes if it's something the table enjoys. And I've absolutely run, fairly recently, 5e in exactly this style -- I don't hand out XP, but I tell you when you've leveled, and that's when you've crossed the selected story thresholds (I ran SKT like this).

 

[Charlaquin]

And, as we discussed, you still moved the triggers for leveling, you just removed the player facing information system (XP) when you did so. So, in talking about removing XP you're doing really only one thing, removing information from the player's side of the game. Again, as we discussed in that other thread, this can be absolutely for the good, but, as with any change, it should be considered. Then you have the changing the incentives. What you described doing removed the immediate feedback information channel from the players (THIS action gets THIS reward incentive loop) and then changed to "I, the GM, think they've done enough" as the incentive structure. That incentive structure moves the players' incentives from specific actions in game (kill monsters, get XP) to a more general "follow what the GM wants." Again, as I said before, this can absolutely lead to good outcomes if it's something the table enjoys. And I've absolutely run, fairly recently, 5e in exactly this style -- I don't hand out XP, but I tell you when you've leveled, and that's when you've crossed the selected story thresholds (I ran SKT like this).

Yeah, this is what bugs me about the “I don’t want to incentivize or disincentivize anything in particular” position. Everything you do is going to create incentives, whether you want it to or not. Better, in my view, to be intentional with the incentives you’re creating. And maybe that does mean story-based advancement. Certainly if you want players to follow the story, that’s a good choice. Or maybe session-based advancement, if you just want to incentivize players to show up to the game every week and do as they will in-game. But still, better to make that choice consciously and intentionally.

 

[payn]

Some folks need to be lead by a nose I guess.

 

[Charlaquin]

Some folks need to be lead by a nose I guess.

Again, everything you do creates incentives whether you want it to or not. May as well choose what you incentivize.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Some folks need to be lead by a nose I guess.

This is an interesting statement, given how, in the other thread, we discussed and agreed that moving to a milestone or story award system reduces agency for players. This is simply because moving to one of these systems obfuscates what earns rewards (levels) and so makes it harder for players to make meaningful choices with regard to taking actions toward earning those rewards. It's a small decrease, and I think one that absolutely can be worthwhile, especially if it's traded for increased tightness on story and pacing if that's what the table wants (ie, good story and exciting pacing). But it's a reduction in agency. So it's hard to see how a game that features XP systems -- that gives clear indicators of how and why a player can earn the rewards of leveling (or whatever) can be said to be leading players by the nose for giving them clear vision of the incentives of the game. It's not like story awards remove incentives, they just move them around and essentially make them "get to the arbitrary line the GM has set." This latter is really just teaching players to follow plot hooks and plots. Which is fine, again, and can be tons of fun. When I used milestone/story award levelling, it was absolutely to encourage following the plot hooks because levels came from resolving/advancing those.

 

[Lanefan]

Well what do I propose instead? Narrative leveling. Forget XP is even a thing and ask yourself as the DM: are my players making progress? Are they in an extreme situation where they're forced to outdo themselves? Do they now have access to new knowledge and training?

Think about it. What if your players consciously thought about how to get better at what they do? Wouldn't they be more motivated?

They'd be more motivated, but in the wrong way: they'd start playing specifically to level up rather than just play and have level-up occur as an occasional side effect.

Also, any system like this puts far too much weight on DM fiat, and forces a DM to either a) level everyone up at the same time whether each character deserves it or not or b) be wide open to charges of favouritism if she levels up some characters but not others.

 

[payn]

Again, everything you do creates incentives whether you want it to or not. May as well choose what you incentivize.

I do, I incentivize everything by removing XP entirely.

So it's hard to see how a game that features XP systems -- that gives clear indicators of how and why a player can earn the rewards of leveling (or whatever) can be said to be leading players by the nose for giving them clear vision of the incentives of the game.

It reduces the paths forward for the players. They focus on what gives XP and minimize what doesn't. It just so happens that what doesn't can squeeze into the grand canyon in D&D XP through the editions.

 

[Lanefan]

Could you elaborate on some of those obvious benefits and drawbacks? I'm drawing a blank.

To me the clearest and greatest benefit of (individual) xp is that the characters who do the most (and-or take the greatest risks) earn the most and thus advance a bit quicker than the characters who don't do as much and thus don't earn as much. This one thing alone is why I'll keep using xp as long as I'm DMing.

 

[Lanefan]

I do, I incentivize everything by removing XP entirely.

Well, either that or you're incentivizing nothing; and IMO it's a very open question which result removing xp would lead to.

It reduces the paths forward for the players. They focus on what gives XP and minimize what doesn't. It just so happens that what doesn't can squeeze into the grand canyon in D&D XP through the editions.

This assumes - perhaps rightly in some cases - that the players' main reason for playing is to level up their characters. In a game where level-ups happen frequently, I can see how this mindset would arise; but in games like mine where advancement is very slow and level-ups are merely an occasional pleasant side effect of play, the main reason for play becomes instead the simple enjoyment of the day-to-day play.