D&D 2E 2e Bard vs Wizard Class Balance

[James Gasik]

Probably what they should have done, is made Bard a Thief+ class the same way Ranger and Paladin are Fighter+, and given them their own (slower) progression compared to the Thief to compensate for them having more abilities, such as spellcasting. They'd lose some things, like Backstab, and have extra restrictions, just like how Rangers get special abilities and magic but must be Good, have a virtual restriction to lighter armors, and a few special restrictions and Paladins get special abilities and magic but must be Super Good and adhere to a stricter code of conduct.

 

[cbwjm]

Probably what they should have done, is made Bard a Thief+ class the same way Ranger and Paladin are Fighter+, and given them their own (slower) progression compared to the Thief to compensate for them having more abilities, such as spellcasting. They'd lose some things, like Backstab, and have extra restrictions, just like how Rangers get special abilities and magic but must be Good, have a virtual restriction to lighter armors, and a few special restrictions and Paladins get special abilities and magic but must be Super Good and adhere to a stricter code of conduct.

Was just idly thinking about the 2e bard and its xp progression, was going to post my own thread but this one popped up so figured I'd drag it back up. It always seemed to me that the bard was undervalued in terms if XP and that it should have used a slower progression, possible the cleric or fighter or perhaps just a 20% increase on the thief xp table.

 

[James Gasik]

Basically yeah. The 2e Bard is just such a weird beast- he has a lot of minor abilities, mostly meh Thief abilities, and 6th level casting with a hasty xp progression, but he is completely at the whim of the campaign to determine what spells he can acquire. He's not a replacement for a Mage, he's a terrible combatant, and his abilities are very niche. He can shine in some campaigns and flounder in others because of this. The Complete Bard's handbook gives him the option to multiclass, which helps out immensely (though a few combinations can eventually seem pretty busted, like Mage/Bard).

 

[cbwjm]

Basically yeah. The 2e Bard is just such a weird beast- he has a lot of minor abilities, mostly meh Thief abilities, and 6th level casting with a hasty xp progression, but he is completely at the whim of the campaign to determine what spells he can acquire. He's not a replacement for a Mage, he's a terrible combatant, and his abilities are very niche. He can shine in some campaigns and flounder in others because of this. The Complete Bard's handbook gives him the option to multiclass, which helps out immensely (though a few combinations can eventually seem pretty busted, like Mage/Bard).

I should read the bards handbook again, I don't recall there being multiclass options. I think the only multiclass options I saw was with the, I think, aasimar that allowed multiclass combos with the bard.

 

[James Gasik]

Certain Bard Kits allow you to multiclass (page 63), on top of a few "True Bard" combinations:

Half-Elves could be Fighter/Bards, Fighter/Blades, Fighter/Gallants, or Fighter/Skalds. Ranger/Bards or Ranger/Meistersingers. Mage/Loremasters or Mage/Riddlemasters, Cleric/Bards, Druid/Meistersingers, Thief/Bards, Thief/Gypsies (unfortunate), Thief/Thespians or Thief/Jongleurs.

Dwarves could be Fighter/Chanters or Fighter/Skalds.

Elves could be Mage/Minstrels or Thief/Gypsies.

Halflings could be Thief/Jongleurs, and Gnomes could be Illusionist/Professors or Thief/Jongleurs and Thief/Professors.

Most peculiarly, despite making "Demi-Bard" Kits for races that normally cannot wield Wizard magic (like the Halfling Whisperer), several of these combinations would actually allow Dwarves or Halflings to cast Wizard spells!

 

[Bacon Bits]

Were the bard benefits worth losing 7th to 9th level spells and slower spell progression?

The Bard wasn't worth it in general, because Bard didn't just compete against Magic-User or Thief. It competed against Magic-User/Thief, Fighter/Magic-User, and Fighter/Magic-User/Thief. The unique Bard abilities are typically so narrow or fallible that they don't really add a lot.

Like it really doesn't line up well once you look at the actual numbers and start comparing actual abilities out. If you can survive past the first 10,000 XP, you're way ahead as multiclass, IMO.

Total XP	Bard Level	Fighter/2	Mage/2	Thief/2	Fighter/3	Mage/3	Thief/3
0	1	1	1	1	1	1	1
1,250	2	1	1	1	1	1	1
2,500	3	1	1	2	1	1	1
5,000	4	2	2	3	1	1	2
10,000	5	3	3	4	2	2	3
20,000	6	4	4	5	3	3	4
40,000	7	5	5	6	4	4	5
70,000	8	6	5	6	5	5	6
110,000	9	6	6	7	6	5	6
160,000	10	7	7	8	6	6	7
220,000	11	7	8	9	7	7	8
440,000	12	8	9	11	8	9	9
660,000	13	9	10	11	8	9	11
880,000	14	9	11	12	9	10	11
1,100,000	15	10	11	12	9	10	11
1,320,000	16	10	11	13	9	11	12
1,540,000	17	11	12	13	10	11	12
1,760,000	18	11	12	14	10	11	12
1,980,000	19	11	12	14	10	11	13
2,200,000	20	12	12	15	10	11	13

Fighter/2 is the level a two class multiclass fighter would be at with the listed amount of total XP. Fighter/3 is the level a three class multiclass fighter would be at, and so on.

 

[Voadam]

Like it really doesn't line up well once you look at the actual numbers and start comparing actual abilities out. If you can survive past the first 10,000 XP, you're way ahead as multiclass, IMO.

I disagree.

A multiclass thief will be ahead on the breadth of the thief skills (detect and remove traps is really nice), and a multiclass fighter will eventually pass them on multiple attacks and THAC0, but a bard will be ahead of the casting of the multiclass mage and probably ahead on hp compared to the multiclass fighter at a lot of xp amounts, and will pull ahead of thieves on skill point totals once they are 3 levels higher than the multiclass thief.

A 7th level bard and a multiclassed mage 5 will both be throwing a level 3 fireball. The mage will just be doing 2d6 less damage with it thanks to caster level.

A 20th level bard will have 3 6th level spells at 20th caster level. A 12th level multiclassed mage will have 1 6th level spell at 12th caster level.

 

[James Gasik]

Sure, but being a better than a multiclassed Mage isn't really a shining selling point for the Bard, which doesn't bring much else to the table. Detect Noise and Climb Walls are ok, but a spell can do what Read Languages can, and Pick Pockets only has slight utility.

Countersong is rarely used, and the inspiration ability is outdone by a Bless spell from a Cleric. I like to compare Bard to the Cleric, and it's pretty easy to see the Cleric is better in all categories and doesn't have to earn all that much more xp to get there.

So if you play a Bard, and your campaign allows you to easily amass a lot of spells, you eventually become a middling caster with 10 more hit points, lower Thac0, and some minor utility. Your caster level is higher than a pure Wizard's will be, but that's not a huge draw (though it is nice if you're playing Spelljammer).

If you look at what the multiclassed Wizard is bringing in from it's other side, however, there's no way the Bard can compete. Especially if the other side is Cleric 13. Or heck, if the Bard's Handbook is in play, Wizard 12/Bard 15.

 

[cbwjm]

Honestly, I also feel like the cleric should need more xp to level.

 

[James Gasik]

Probably, yes, but of course, the main reason the class is so powerful is that their spells are vital to adventuring. Natural healing takes forever, and it doesn't take many encounters before adventurers are left fuming on hit points, desperately trying to find a safe haven.

Add to that the ability to cure poison and disease, let alone reviving the fallen, and it's really hard to imagine play without some kind of priest with major access to the Healing Sphere.

Yet being a priest can be a thankless job, so they were given all kinds of extras to make them seem more desirable to players.

This eventually got out of hand, with the specialty priests of the Forgotten Realms taking the cake by poaching all sorts of abilities from other classes, allowing for all-Priest parties- in effect, by the end of 2e, the priest class was the jack of all trades, not the Bard.