Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

[AbdulAlhazred]

How come you guys had Fate and Persona in your first session?

Our GM is a nice guy

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Our GM is a nice guy

@pemerton, OK, maybe he was just trying to give us rope so we could hang ourselves? ROFL. I'm not sure how I would have acquired a check without having a Persona point, TBH. Seems to me like there's little harm in giving out a point of each to start with so players can get a better feel for how the game works. Maybe once TB2 grinds these guys out of existence our NEXT characters won't be so lucky, haha.

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton, OK, maybe he was just trying to give us rope so we could hang ourselves? ROFL. I'm not sure how I would have acquired a check without having a Persona point, TBH. Seems to me like there's little harm in giving out a point of each to start with so players can get a better feel for how the game works. Maybe once TB2 grinds these guys out of existence our NEXT characters won't be so lucky, haha.

Well, when you make your new PC you get to carry over Fate and Persona from your dead PC to a max of 3 of each (this is the "Heir to the Pauper's Throne" rule).

In my three first sessions I dutifully followed the rule of "no rewards to start with". All the checks that were accrued - and there weren't more than a handful - were based on taking a penalty to a check that already had no chance of success given the size of the pool relative to the obstacle.

What I found in my sessions - I don't know about yours - was that players didn't spend their Traits to buff as freely as they should have. In all three sessions there were unspent Traits left over at the end. To me, that looks disastrous.

 

[aramis erak]

The first one might reflect a vantage point of 2nd ed AD&D. The second would be getting down into the nitty gritty of actually thinking about playing or running either Dungeon World or Torchbearer.

The idea that you might do Torchbearer or DW with 5e D&D is just ludicrous.

Given this is a Torchbearer thread I'll only elaborate on it. And only in one respect - where is the help rule in 5e D&D? Or the rule that every test (outside of a conflict, and recognising that Town and Camp Phase have their own logic) costs a turn? 5e D&D is a completely different game, once the superficial resemblances of trope are looked past.

Help rule in D&D 5e § Working Together page 179

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, when you make your new PC you get to carry over Fate and Persona from your dead PC to a max of 3 of each (this is the "Heir to the Pauper's Throne" rule).

In my three first sessions I dutifully followed the rule of "no rewards to start with". All the checks that were accrued - and there weren't more than a handful - were based on taking a penalty to a check that already had no chance of success given the size of the pool relative to the obstacle.

What I found in my sessions - I don't know about yours - was that players didn't spend their Traits to buff as freely as they should have. In all three sessions there were unspent Traits left over at the end. To me, that looks disastrous.

Right, well, I THINK the conclusion I've come to is that traits are sort of a form of color that lets you add a die here or there, or subtract one to get checks of course, but that BASICALLY you can use those options almost any time you wish (I concede that there can be situations where you simply cannot justify a specific trait in the fiction, though with traits like the ones my PC has, that should be a minority of the time).

So, yeah, I think the truth is the party should come out of an adventure with basically every one of those 'I used my trait' boxes checked, pretty much always. We definitely didn't flog it that hard, lol. While we were playing fairly cautiously and the moves we made seemed reasonably good, there was definitely some coin left lying on the table! hehe.

 

[niklinna]

Right, well, I THINK the conclusion I've come to is that traits are sort of a form of color that lets you add a die here or there, or subtract one to get checks of course, but that BASICALLY you can use those options almost any time you wish (I concede that there can be situations where you simply cannot justify a specific trait in the fiction, though with traits like the ones my PC has, that should be a minority of the time).

Traits are not just color (although they include it)—they are a fundamental mechanism in the game. No checks for using them against yourself, no camp phase or recovery!

So, yeah, I think the truth is the party should come out of an adventure with basically every one of those 'I used my trait' boxes checked, pretty much always. We definitely didn't flog it that hard, lol. While we were playing fairly cautiously and the moves we made seemed reasonably good, there was definitely some coin left lying on the table! hehe.

We aren't done yet, but yes, for the whole group we have marked one beneficial use, and one use against. We need to flog them hard in the next session or face dire consequences....

 

[pemerton]

Traits are not just color (although they include it)—they are a fundamental mechanism in the game. No checks for using them against yourself, no camp phase or recovery!

I think that what @AbdulAlhazred means is that the triggering condition for a trait tends towards mere colour (unlike, say, the triggering condition for an instinct) and hence they are close to an all-purpose resource.

 

[niklinna]

I think that what @AbdulAlhazred means is that the triggering condition for a trait tends towards mere colour (unlike, say, the triggering condition for an instinct) and hence they are close to an all-purpose resource.

Ah okay, I can see that. They are definitely an all-purpose resource you can—and must—use quite broadly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think that what @AbdulAlhazred means is that the triggering condition for a trait tends towards mere colour (unlike, say, the triggering condition for an instinct) and hence they are close to an all-purpose resource.

Right, the process basically goes from boxes to cloud, 'leftward arrow'. I say "I want to get get another check, and I'm facing an obstacle I can easily handle, so I'll describe how I didn't take the time to be careful enough by relying on my quick wits, when I shouldn't have." Now that I think about it, there may be some traits like Hidden Depths which are going to be really hard to cast in a negative light, lol. I guess I could foolishly tough it out instead of preparing well enough in some situation, maybe? OTOH that particular trait seems especially easy to use in a positive way (I mean, who's ever TOO TOUGH, right?).

 

[aramis erak]

Right, the process basically goes from boxes to cloud, 'leftward arrow'. I say "I want to get get another check, and I'm facing an obstacle I can easily handle, so I'll describe how I didn't take the time to be careful enough by relying on my quick wits, when I shouldn't have." Now that I think about it, there may be some traits like Hidden Depths which are going to be really hard to cast in a negative light, lol. I guess I could foolishly tough it out instead of preparing well enough in some situation, maybe? OTOH that particular trait seems especially easy to use in a positive way (I mean, who's ever TOO TOUGH, right?).

Hidden depths can easily be used...
"I'm distracted by studying the motion of the fangs" (borderline)
"While talking down the ogre we're here to hire, I start a story, and time escapes us all as everyone notes new elements about my childhood." (Setting up a Tired or hungry condition in case of failure for complicated success)