D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[James Gasik]

Basically, yes, you get your turn. But how long your turn actually lasts is unknown*. Consider the usual in combat dialogue you hear in an action movie (or what players will say to each other in game). Get out your stopwatches, folks- quite often that takes up MORE than six seconds. Altered perception of time in stressful situations is totally a thing, and no doubt for our heroes, adrenaline has boosted their ability to think and react.

*We know that the round "about six seconds" but that's an arbitrary number, and it might take more or less time for everyone to make their actions.

A lot of players I know like the fiction of spells requiring incantations to cast, but imagine trying to justify that and say "ok, but you only have six seconds to cast all your spells!"

Imagine a Sorcerer casting a spell, a quickened spell as a bonus action, and then shield later in the round. All these could require verbal and somatic components, yet somehow, he can do all of it.

Or the Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger somehow finding ways to toss spells while making melee attacks.

Let's not get hung up on the RAW amounts of time here. It depends on the action being taken. A quick leap to sidestep a boulder is not 6 seconds. An epic boast to taunt one's opponents might be more than 6 seconds. Rounds and turns are narrative concepts.

We know that all of these things are happening simultaneously, as they would in real life.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Exactly, and yet, the one remaining problem that we had was that, as soon as someone said "initiative", the flow changed completely, some people changed their mode of play and some DMs and players entered some sort of mini-game.

Sure, sure. The dreaded "swoosh" of combat that some on internet forums lament. Sounds like you have found a solution that works for your table, which is cool. I think the problem some face with this is one of expectations, perhaps influenced by prior editions, and the solution is really right there in front of everyone. That is, reinforcing the play loop (i.e. "I describe scene, you tell me what your character is doing, and I'll adjudicate accordingly") helps break DMs and players of the potentially boring combat - swing sword, rinse, repeat - mini-game cycle. Describing the changed scene is critical, IMO, as it reinforces the dynamism of combat for both DM and players. And it gives the players a chance to notice something new to grab onto rather than figuratively (or literally for VTTs) looking for that one button to press on their character sheet.

The only thing that we are doing is that id someone says "if the diplomat draws his sword, I will cast sleep on the opposing party", when the diplomat actually draws his sword to attack, instead of just letting initiative decide who acts first with no consideration for the preparation done, we let the readied action stand. So when, in the initiative order, it's the turn of the diplomat, if he draws his sword, then the readied action comes into play, even if the guy in question had a lower initiative than the diplomat.

While creative preparedness is truly a great thing to encourage at the table, I'm more in line with @James Gasik in that initiative is simply going to determine who reacts quickest and gets to go first when surprise is not a factor. I don't like the idea of "front-loaded" combat actions which essentially give the benefit of surprise without surprise really happening. YMMV.

And that's all that it does, it's very specific, and like all readied actions, if the trigger does not occur, then the readied action goes away.

And, if the trigger does not occur at your table, does the player then get a chance to take a different action in that first round?

Yes, for both, depending on the situation, it's more a question of preparedness than anything, sometimes the monsters are way more prepared, sometimes it's the players, everyone accepts that at our tables.

Cool

 

[Maxperson]

No, sorry, I will point them out to you CLEARLY in the spell description:
View attachment 154367




Again, prove it. Where is it said, in the rules ?



Do you have to me somewhere ? Are we not talking about magic here ? Can't you just disappear from a place and appear an instant later somewhere else ?



No, I claim that the word disappear just means what it says it means in plain english: disappear. Remember, in 5e, a spell only does what it says it does.



Actually, it's written, it's an instant later. Like all instantaneous spells, you know, they happen in an instant. Now good luck finding a definition for that anywhere in the rules.



"Teleport" is just a spell, just like "Dimension Door" or "Misty Step". None of these dive any precision about the time it takes to disappear and appear apart from the fact that it's "in an instant".



You are not reading the spell in its entirety. The spell is instantantaneous, meaning that all of its "effects" happen in an instant, including the reappearance.



Ah, this is where you are, once again wrong. "In an instant" does not mean "zero time". Moreover, do you deny that the boom appears AFTER the disappearance ? This clearly indicates that, even with something happening "in an instant", there can be a sequence. Do you deny that there can be a sequence ?

Since there IS a sequence, what prevents the sequence from being "disappear" => "Boom" => "Reappear" ?



Again, you stand on nothing but your own conviction. Remember that the boom ALSO happens in an instant. So, by your computations, and be very precise about this, is it at T=0 or At T>0 ?



But there is, and I'm not the only one thinking there can be. I'm sorry, but your perspective is way too constrained by your own beliefs, but these appear nowhere in the rules, contrary to the fact that the words "disappear", "boom" and "appear" are in the spell description, and actually in that order...

If you look at the timing section of spells, it says that spells that are instantaneous are too brief to be dispelled. Yet I could ready a dispel to target such a spell, interrupting it as a reaction and cast dispel................................if you were correct with your interpretation of Ready. The fact that the game does not let me interrupt an instant spells for a reactionary dispel magic, because it's too brief, also prevents anything such as crawling, walking, walking fast or even dashing during an instant spell, because it's too brief. Those things are all longer than finishing the casting of dispel magic. If one is too long(dispel magic), then the others are also too long.

 

[Maxperson]

About teleport, while it's true effects that block planar travel block teleportation, that doesn't actually mean that teleporting is or isn't planar travel. Looking at the text for Forbiddance, I note the spell states: For the duration, creatures can't teleport into the area or use portals, such as those created by the gate spell, to enter the area.

Teleporting is travel over distance. I showed that earlier with a quote. Whether it's super fast travel in the game world, in which case you are dead if you hit something solid or it's through some other dimension/plane. In fact, the fact that you can teleport into a solid object is proof that you must transit through another dimension. It cannot be in the game world or you WOULD impact the wall, rather than teleporting into it.

 

[Maxperson]

And my point is that sometimes they don't. For example let's say that the first guy in initiative order moves 30 feet, but steps on a trap and dies. Did his turn last six seconds ? Certainly not, because you have all the turns of the other combattants to run, who will do so with the knowledge that the first guy died on a trap, and act accordingly for THEIR full turn.

Again, though, that only means that the sequential order of the game is necessarily nonsensical. If they were simultaneous as you claim, those other combatants could not have that foreknowledge and might hit the trap at the same time.

 

[Maxperson]

While creative preparedness is truly a great thing to encourage at the table, I'm more in line with @James Gasik in that initiative is simply going to determine who reacts quickest and gets to go first when surprise is not a factor. I don't like the idea of "front-loaded" combat actions which essentially give the benefit of surprise without surprise really happening. YMMV.

You also have to remember that in order to ready a spell, you've already cast it and are holding the energy, so if the wizard says, "I ready sleep to cast if the diplomat draws his sword," the wizard has probably just started a fight by casting a spell and holding it against the diplomat.

 

[Lyxen]

If you look at the timing section of spells, it says that spells that are instantaneous are too brief to be dispelled. Yet I could ready a dispel to target such a spell, interrupting it as a reaction and cast dispel................................if you were correct with your interpretation of Ready.

The problem is that, after all this time, you still have not understood how "ready" works, and in particular the fact that the reaction occurs after the trigger is complete. So if you cast dispel as a reaction to the spell being cast, it's already too late, as described by the rules.

The fact that the game does not let me interrupt an instant spells for a reactionary dispel magic, because it's too brief, also prevents anything such as crawling,

It allows you to do it with specialised spells like counterspell, which just goes to prove that you still don't understand the concepts.

walking, walking fast or even dashing during an instant spell, because it's too brief. Those things are all longer than finishing the casting of dispel magic. If one is too long(dispel magic), then the others are also too long.

See above, do a bit a reading on the subject and let go of your preconceptions, OK ?

 

[Lyxen]

You also have to remember that in order to ready a spell, you've already cast it and are holding the energy, so if the wizard says, "I ready sleep to cast if the diplomat draws his sword," the wizard has probably just started a fight by casting a spell and holding it against the diplomat.

He might, or he might not. Contrary to attacks which are only actions that you can (by RAW), take in combat, there are no rules forcing spell casting to be in combat.

I'm not saying that you are wrong here, it might just be the case, but it does not have to be, he could be using subtle spell, or might be sufficiently far away so that the casting is not noticed.

Moreover, the fact that he cast a spell and holds it ready does not mean that everyone knows what the spell is, it has not had any effect yet, and it has not been cast agressively against anyone, and in particular not the diplomat.

 

[Maxperson]

The problem is that, after all this time, you still have not understood how "ready" works, and in particular the fact that the reaction occurs after the trigger is complete. So if you cast dispel as a reaction to the spell being cast, it's already too late, as described by the rules.

I'm not, though. I can perceive the beginning of a spell being cast, just like you claim the disappearance is the beginning it teleporting.

That means that my trigger for the dispel magic happens before the spell us cast.

It allows you to do it with specialised spells like counterspell, which just goes to prove that you still don't understand the concepts.

Counterspell isn't any faster than a readied dispel magic. Both are reactions.

 

[Lyxen]

Sure, sure. The dreaded "swoosh" of combat that some on internet forums lament. Sounds like you have found a solution that works for your table, which is cool. I think the problem some face with this is one of expectations, perhaps influenced by prior editions, and the solution is really right there in front of everyone. That is, reinforcing the play loop (i.e. "I describe scene, you tell me what your character is doing, and I'll adjudicate accordingly") helps break DMs and players of the potentially boring combat - swing sword, rinse, repeat - mini-game cycle. Describing the changed scene is critical, IMO, as it reinforces the dynamism of combat for both DM and players. And it gives the players a chance to notice something new to grab onto rather than figuratively (or literally for VTTs) looking for that one button to press on their character sheet.

Yes, and I would add to this that, for example based on insight rolls or even passive insight, we sometimes describe the preparedness of someone: "you notice that the bodyguard of the diplomat is watching your wizard very carefully, as if he was preparing for some treachery", etc.

While creative preparedness is truly a great thing to encourage at the table, I'm more in line with @James Gasik in that initiative is simply going to determine who reacts quickest and gets to go first when surprise is not a factor. I don't like the idea of "front-loaded" combat actions which essentially give the benefit of surprise without surprise really happening. YMMV.

Indeed, as I've said, this is our solution, it works well for us, but it's not in the rules, I just offer it as a potential solution for others who might have the same problem.

And, if the trigger does not occur at your table, does the player then get a chance to take a different action in that first round?

If the trigger does not occur, it's like any readied action, when his turn comes, the readied action goes away, and he can do whatever he wants with his turn.