Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

Yes. It surprises me that you can see that it is limitless without seeing what that implies. The fictional position cannot be solely an enumeration of objects: there must be an aboutness or intentionality to know that we do/do-not agree what follows.


I feel that intentionality has to be included whether I like it or not because every example requires it. Perhaps take a look at the Stanford entry on Intentionality and come back to this question.


Hence as I denoted, tied f differs from pursuit f. Agreement on what may follow is changed by the tie. It's consistent with the job being done by fictional positioning to describe that it has changed.

We might end up having to accept our versions as simply definitional. When I speak of fictional positioning it's my version that I mean, and that results in differences between our analyses.
The question is, why conflate two distinct things, intent, and situation? There is a thing, lets call it 'situation' since you are not wanting to use the standard term. Situation consists of all the factors known to be present in the consensus fictional state of the story at this time. Gnolls are emerging from the shadows, Harguld is at the mouth of the cave with a loaded crossbow, waiting for them, the rest of the party is leaving the vicinity, making good their escape. FURTHERMORE each of the characters in the scene has some sort of immediate intent, as well as presumably larger goals and plans. These will inform the participants action declarations. Are they all part of 'game state', yeah I think that's not an unreasonable construction at all. So, now we have simply reduced this to a terminological question, is Fictional Position, the term, identical to what I here called 'situation', and I think that is how it was used in Forge Speak generally, or does it encompass my situation AS WELL AS intent? Personally I lobby for the former, as it is more precise and allows us to discuss things in a clearer way, and its how I've always meant that term.
 

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Hmm, let me throw out a situation here. My PC declares that he is going to shoot an arrow at the Gnolls in the above example. The game then moves into the mechanics and conversation of actions and adjudication. Personally, I think the idea of intentionality is at work there in some fashion. The PC hasn't actually fired the arrow yet, and yet in the midst of the mechanical bits they might decide to take a negative die for a trait working against them once they realize that the die pool isn't big enough to ensure success (or a bunch of other decisions that modify the original declaration in some way). There's a conversation there, a back and forth between the GM and the Player, that is bounded in some way by the intentionality of the action declaration. The objects and circumstances involved are all encompassed by that intentionality. If you took the same objects and circumstances but changed the action declaration, i.e. changed the intentional framework if you like, then the adjudication and whatnot changes - a decision to hide for example, or whatever.

I'm not at all sure that's what @clearstream is talking about however. Or even how useful the example is. :unsure:
Right, we all agree that there's fictional position AND intent, which both feed into some sort of resolution process for the conflict at hand. If either of them is changed, then you have a different trajectory for the fiction to take, you get a different story out of it. I've always liked, honestly, the PbtA process in the sense that it makes this VERY VERY CLEAR! You describe your actions, what you are attempting to achieve, and the GM tells you what move you made. Very clear, you've got distinct mechanics that the resolution process gets channeled through for each general type of thing you were attempting. Now, it may still be there's more than just the move, Hack & Slash could leave a lot of choices, but in PbtA those have already been made! You said "I'm shooting the gnoll" and then the GM says "OK, that's Volley" and you roll your 2d6, add up whatever bonuses or penalties might apply, and read off where things go next. Either the player or the GM may have further input at that point, depending on the result (I think only the player gets to make any choices with Volley).

Anyway, I think we're all on the same page, @clearstream isn't way off in the woods, he just has what I consider an odd definition of Fictional Position that combines it with intent.
 

Right, we all agree that there's fictional position AND intent, which both feed into some sort of resolution process for the conflict at hand. If either of them is changed, then you have a different trajectory for the fiction to take, you get a different story out of it. I've always liked, honestly, the PbtA process in the sense that it makes this VERY VERY CLEAR! You describe your actions, what you are attempting to achieve, and the GM tells you what move you made. Very clear, you've got distinct mechanics that the resolution process gets channeled through for each general type of thing you were attempting. Now, it may still be there's more than just the move, Hack & Slash could leave a lot of choices, but in PbtA those have already been made! You said "I'm shooting the gnoll" and then the GM says "OK, that's Volley" and you roll your 2d6, add up whatever bonuses or penalties might apply, and read off where things go next. Either the player or the GM may have further input at that point, depending on the result (I think only the player gets to make any choices with Volley).

Anyway, I think we're all on the same page, @clearstream isn't way off in the woods, he just has what I consider an odd definition of Fictional Position that combines it with intent.
Well, if I were to get granular I'd say that intent is part of fictional positioning and not a separate thing, but that's not a distinction that matters too much at this point in the conversation.
 

Yes. It surprises me that you can see that it is limitless without seeing what that implies. The fictional position cannot be solely an enumeration of objects: there must be an aboutness or intentionality to know that we do/do-not agree what follows.
This makes no sense to me. I am currently sitting on my couch. That is my position. I am in my living room, and it is late at night. I could turn on the TV, play a DVD, lie down on my couch and go to sleep, get up and get a drink of water, and that's all before I think about leaving the house or going upstairs.

It does not follow from that partial list of things I might do, that my position is anything other than sitting in the living room of a fairly conventional 21st century Australian house.

I feel that intentionality has to be included whether I like it or not because every example requires it. Perhaps take a look at the Stanford entry on Intentionality and come back to this question.
I don't feel the need to look at the Stanford entry. I'm reasonably well-read in the philosophy of action. I can't remember if my copy of Davidson on Action and Events is here or at work - maybe one of the things I could do from my current position is go to the room with the bookshelves, pick it up and read it! That would be an additional bit of information about my position. It doesn't require any elaborate account of my mental states.

When it comes to fictional position, of course, notions like "I can't remember if <my position includes such-and-such>" and "I just discovered the there's a gelati truck outside, so my position includes easy access to ice cream", don't apply. Because fiction is not self-existent and amenable to discovery. It is authored, and in RPGing as Baker tells us it is authored collectively, by way of system-mediated negotiation.

Suppose my PC's fictional position is on the couch at home. And then I declare the action, "I'm going into my library to look for my copy of Davidson on Action and Events!" There are a very wide range of ways of resolving this action declaration, but one might be that the GM calls for a Scholar check - how well stocked is your library? And let's suppose that our game has a rule like DW's Spout Lore: when you succeed on a Scholar check, you have to explain how you came by the knowledge, tome, or whatever it is in question. Furthermore, let's suppose that there's a rule that if it's self-evident to everyone at the table that no such explanation is available, then the check automatically fails.

So I make the check, and succeed. And I narrate, "I go to my library and pick my copy of Davidson of the shelf. It's the same copy I bought as an Honours student writing a research paper on Gilbert Ryle's essay on pleasure." We now have some newly-established fiction: my PC's fictional position has changed to being in the library and having a copy of Davidson ready-to-hand. And my PC's backstory includes new facts about an Honours research paper. But that backstory was not part of the fictional position that underpinned the action resolution. It bears the same relationship to the action declaration and resolution as Harguld's waiting too long does to Dro's action declaration and the resolution of that. They are both bits of fiction that are downstream of resolution, not upstream of it. They did not come "first".

Suppose that, instead of Davidson, my action declaration is "I'm going into my library to look for my copy of the Necrinomicon!". And someone at the table says, "Hang on, that's a notoriously rare book, with all the known copies accounted for and none of them is said to be in your house. There's nothing about your PC that suggests an antiquarian collector of rare books. We've never had cultists hanging around your suburb trying to catch a glimpse of your copy. Etc, etc." And I say, "Fair enough, I guess there's no way I would have a copy of the Necronomicon at home, I withdraw that action declaration." That would be an example of fictional position - the fact that my PC is at home, coupled with the established fiction about my home - ruling out an action declaration, similar to the "reaching" rules in Torchbearer ruling out the use of a trait.

That such a thing can happen doesn't make the narration that flows from the use of the trait, or (in my toy example) the narration the explains how I have a book on my shelf at home, part of the fictional position that leads up to that narration. In the real world, subject to possible weird exceptions that don't apply at roleplaying tables, effect follows cause and can't proceed it. If narration follows resolution, the fiction that is narrated cannot have been a component of the fictional position that underpinned the resolution.

Agreement on what may follow is changed by the tie.
How is this anything but a restatement of Baker's point that the purpose of mechanics is to mediate negotiation over the content of the shared fiction? If the tie didn't change anything about what people might agree to include within the fiction, then the mechanics would be pointless and epiphenomenal (now as it happens a fair bit of mainstream RPGing exhibits such epiphenominalism of mechanics, but in this thread we're talking about Torchbearer).

That doesn't make the tie a feature of the fiction. It is a cue.

It's consistent with the job being done by fictional positioning to describe that it has changed.
I don't know what the second occurrence of "it" refers to. What has changed?

Fictional positioning is changed by changing the fiction. The rolling of the tie leads to a change in the fiction, in accordance with the rules of the game. The rolling of the tie is not itself a change in the fiction.

Even in systems without FitM resolution, it is helpful to distinguish between the boxes and the clouds. For instance, in Rolemaster play I declare my attack (clouds, leads to . . . ), I roll the dice (boxes, leads to . . ), I add the modifiers (boxes, leads to . . .), I consult the weapon chart (boxes, leads to . . .), I roll the crit (boxes, leads to . . .), I consult the crit chart (boxes, leads to . . . ) I learned what happened to the victim of my attack (clouds). We can see that by distinguishing the boxes and the clouds, we can explain why RM is not a "lite" system and why some people find that it involves too much "search and handling" to be worth the resulting specific and visceral fiction.

We can also see that introducing called shots into RM is not trivial: where would the intention to strike at (say) the head - which is something in the fiction - be injected into the process just described? At my table, the rule -adapted from (I think) RMCIII - was that every 2 points of attack bonus allocated allowed 1 point of crit shift (with a special rule about not shifting to 66 unless the Ambush skill was also used). But notice that then produces the following sequence:

I declare my attack (clouds, leads to . . . ), I roll the dice (boxes, leads to . . ), I add the modifiers which include my crit shift (boxes, leads to . . .), I consult the weapon chart (boxes, leads to . . .), I roll the crit (boxes, leads to . . .), I consult the crit chart (boxes, leads to . . . ), I apply my crit shift (boxes, leads to . . .) I learn what happened to the victim of my attack and I learn where I was aiming my attack (clouds). Reread that bolded bit: the crit shift rule means that RM, one of the most purist-for-system simulationist engines on the market, has suddenly become FitM - I don't know what I was aiming at when I declared my attack until after I resolve the attack having applied my crit shift to my crit roll!

We might end up having to accept our versions as simply definitional. When I speak of fictional positioning it's my version that I mean, and that results in differences between our analyses.
It's not just definitional. As best I can tell, you are asserting that the cues, which constrain the establishment of fiction, are themselves components of the fiction and hence of the fictional positioning. Which to me seems obviously false.
 

Well, if I were to get granular I'd say that intent is part of fictional positioning and not a separate thing, but that's not a distinction that matters too much at this point in the conversation.
I guess there's an argument that says CHARACTER intent is 'part of the fiction' because the character, and thus the character's mental state is 'part of the fictional setting at that moment'. However, as you say, it seems like hair-splitting, and not only that but (at least in the majority of games I've played) the character's intent is not necessarily known to all the people at the table, and is decided only by the player. So it may NOT be a part of the 'shared fiction' (though it will usually emerge). That means its a bit different from other things, like where the gnolls are. Honestly, I would think in most cases the player only decides intent AFTER the scene is framed, right? It feels almost more like a 'move' than a 'thing'.
 

I guess there's an argument that says CHARACTER intent is 'part of the fiction' because the character, and thus the character's mental state is 'part of the fictional setting at that moment'. However, as you say, it seems like hair-splitting, and not only that but (at least in the majority of games I've played) the character's intent is not necessarily known to all the people at the table, and is decided only by the player. So it may NOT be a part of the 'shared fiction' (though it will usually emerge). That means its a bit different from other things, like where the gnolls are. Honestly, I would think in most cases the player only decides intent AFTER the scene is framed, right? It feels almost more like a 'move' than a 'thing'.
I was linking intentionality to fictional positioning at the moment of action declaration, which is known to the table. If it's not know to the table it's not really framing the fiction in the same way, IMO anyway.
 

Hmm, let me throw out a situation here. My PC declares that he is going to shoot an arrow at the Gnolls in the above example. The game then moves into the mechanics and conversation of actions and adjudication. Personally, I think the idea of intentionality is at work there in some fashion. The PC hasn't actually fired the arrow yet
Are we talking about Torchbearer still?

If so, at the moment Dro says "I put a bolt in his face!" then it is true, in the fiction, that Harguld has shot his crossbow. Still on p 33 of the SG, Thor's response (as GM) to Dro's action declaration is "Right. Fighter skill test versus its Ambushing Nature 5." The test being made follows from the (newly)established fiction that Harguld is shooting a bolt at the Gnoll. This is just the same as Vincent Baker's When your character attacks mine, roll dice (a rightward arrow, from clouds/fiction to boxes/cues/mechanics).

In the case of Torchbearer, the point is reinforced by the SG discussions of action declaration and resolution: "If a player describes their character's actions in relation to an obstacle . . . they make the test. There's no backing out" (p 31); "Don't negotiate with players. . . . [W]hen relaying their decisions to you, player describe the actions of their characters. You then interpret that action into a skill test an an obstacle" (p 217).

in the midst of the mechanical bits they might decide to take a negative die for a trait working against them once they realize that the die pool isn't big enough to ensure success (or a bunch of other decisions that modify the original declaration in some way). There's a conversation there, a back and forth between the GM and the Player, that is bounded in some way by the intentionality of the action declaration.
None of this changes the fact that the action has been declared, and in the fiction that thing is happening.

The objects and circumstances involved are all encompassed by that intentionality. If you took the same objects and circumstances but changed the action declaration, i.e. changed the intentional framework if you like, then the adjudication and whatnot changes - a decision to hide for example, or whatever.
As far as I can tell, what you're saying here is that if the action declaration - and hence the fictional position - was different (eg instead of declaring I shooot, Dro declares I scarper) then the fictional constraints that govern the use of a trait would change. That's true, but is not about "intentionality". It's about the fiction being different: Harguld would be doing a different thing.

Well, if I were to get granular I'd say that intent is part of fictional positioning and not a separate thing, but that's not a distinction that matters too much at this point in the conversation.
Whose intent? Harguld's intention to shoot the Gnoll is part of the fictional position, but largely irrelevant as Torchbearer has no mechanical processes that are sensitive to a character's intent - the relevant mechanics (eg what skill or attribute is tested) are all determined by task, not intent. (Contrast, say, In A Wicked Age where the character's intent might enliven With Love or For Others rather than With Violence or For Myself; or HeroWars/Quest, where if a PC's intent pertains to a relationship, then that relationship rating can figure in the process of action resolution.) I also agree with @AbdulAlhazred's remarks that more subtle aspects of the character's mental states, while perhaps being imagined by individual participants, are frequently not part of the shared fiction because not really articulated. And of course in the example we're discussing, one key part of Harguld's mental state - ie his Cunning, which leads him to wait too long trying to lure the Gnoll in - is not made part of the shared fiction until after the mechanical process of resolution is complete.

Turing from character to player: Dro's intent (ie, how Dro is hoping the shared fiction will turn out; what Dro thinks this action declaration will contribute to the play experience at the table; that Dro is looking for a chance to spend a trait to earn some checks; etc) is a real thing and not part of the fiction and hence not part of anyone's fictional positioning.

I was linking intentionality to fictional positioning at the moment of action declaration, which is known to the table.
Again, we don't need intentionality. Action does the job: Harguld is shooting his crossbow at the Gnoll. Introducing discussions of Harguld's mental state only muddies the waters, because it leads to this obscurantist notion that Harguld's waiting too long is a part of the fictional position that caused the tie and caused the use of the trait; whereas the actual process, that I've spelled out in posts upthread, is that the rolling of the dice and the noting of the tie is a cue, and the expenditure of a trait is another cue, and these mechanical processes all culminate in the introduction of a new bit of fiction: namely, that Harguld waited too long. And some thing that is narrated as an output of action resolution is, simply in virtue of that, not a component of the fiction that underpinned the action declaration.
 

I see intentionality at work as part of what frames the adjudication process. You don't. It probably doesn't really matter who's version we go with since the process looks the same either way. It's not a hill I even want to particularly defend, never mind die on, I was just trying a situation on for size to see what people made of it.
 

I see intentionality at work as part of what frames the adjudication process. You don't. It probably doesn't really matter who's version we go with since the process looks the same either way. It's not a hill I even want to particularly defend, never mind die on, I was just trying a situation on for size to see what people made of it.
I'm just puzzled by what the intentionality is that you (and @clearstream?) are referring to.

If it's Harguld's intention to shoot the gnoll, the concept of action seems to cover all the ground that we need. As you say, the process looks the same if action is the operative notion.

And if it's Dro's intention, then that's real and not fictional.

And just to be clear - given that I feel you're something of an innocent bystander in this exchange who's taking fire from entrenched positions you didn't even know were there! - there is a hill I'm defending. Which is that the use of a Trait, in Torchbearer, is not fiction-first. And the reason I'm defending that hill is because the difference between Torchbearer and DungeonWorld is a real one. And if we want to have good play experiences in TB, and good play experiences in DW, we should keep that in mind. DW is "if you do it, you do it". TB isn't. That's part of what opens up TB to skilful play in ways that are different from DW. Not all skilful play in TB is skilful play of the fiction. Quite a bit of it is skilful play of "meta"-resources, like Traits. (I'll @Manbearcat on this point, in case he has any thoughts to share.)
 

Hmm, I'd agree that DW and TB are very different beasts, for sure. I was really just talking about TB in my example. Your description of skillful play in TB is precisely where I think TB opens itself up to intentionality as a bounding factor on fictional positioning. Not that intentionality doesn't play into PbtA games, but that's a whole different convo.

I'm not fashed about responses contra at all though. I was just trying an idea on for size.
 

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