Can you explain what this means?
Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions
- Thread starter pemerton
- Start date
The exact nature of the action can change over the course of the adjudication process, but it's bounded by the intent of the declaration. Specifically things like deciding to use a trait against yourself once the die pools are set. The intention maintains the teleos even while the details might change. I'd have a similar argument about declaring combat via cards.
TB's conflict rules, in which both sides declare three ordered actions, is essentially declaring combat via cards.
Oh, look.
Sure, but the context of each action, which is what I'm referring to as intentionality, projects to the others. They aren't happening sequentially with no impact, the players discuss the whole range of tactical possibilities at every step along the way.
I think we might disagree on this.
Additional fiction can be authored that pertains to the action - like in the SG example, Harguld waits too long and so the Gnoll gets too close.
But that is not a change to the fiction (unless you count adding an element as changing the fiction). The fiction remains that Harguld shot the Gnoll who had emerged from the shadow while Harguld was standing in the cave mouth, crossbow loaded and ready.
Suppose that Dro wanted to use a different trait, that would put Harguld's intention in a different light - eg Desperate, and Harguld shoots too soon. This introduces an element of fear or desperation into Harguld's intention that wasn't present in the initial action declaration. That doesn't make it an impermissible reaching, though. Because it is still consistent with the established fiction that Harguld shot the Gnoll who had emerged from the shadow while Harguld was standing in the cave mouth, crossbow loaded and ready.
Notice how Dro's narration of his Cunning establishes fiction that is located, in time, prior to Harguld's decision to shoot, which Dro made part of the fiction ("I put a bolt in his face!") before the dice were even rolled.
That's what I described upthread as a "retcon", which Google/Oxford defines as:
Here, the new information is that Harguld waited too long, trying to lure in the Gnoll, while the previously described event is I [Harguld] put a bolt in its face!. The different interpretation is that what initially was presented as competence is, in fact, not. And the dramatic plot shift is that Harguld, rather than confidently shooting the Gnoll, is afraid.
I don't think Burning Wheel has anything quite like this - maybe the Steel rules? In which case Torchbearer makes me think about them in a new light.
I don't think Apocalypse World has anything like this either, but I don't know it quite as well.
That's what I described upthread as a "retcon", which Google/Oxford defines as:
a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
Here, the new information is that Harguld waited too long, trying to lure in the Gnoll, while the previously described event is I [Harguld] put a bolt in its face!. The different interpretation is that what initially was presented as competence is, in fact, not. And the dramatic plot shift is that Harguld, rather than confidently shooting the Gnoll, is afraid.
I don't think Burning Wheel has anything quite like this - maybe the Steel rules? In which case Torchbearer makes me think about them in a new light.
I don't think Apocalypse World has anything like this either, but I don't know it quite as well.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yeah, not in Dungeon World. As you say, its a more immediate kind of thing, if you say you do it, you do it. So, in DW you'd not get the chance to impose factors after the check that would alter the fiction, though I think we can still claim it to be Fortune In the Middle, as there are often elements of the fiction left unresolved after you declare your action and the GM names your move. Once you roll, you will still have to describe the outcome. In Harguld's case it could be that he outright hits the gnoll, or that he hits but has to choose a complication (out of ammo, reduced damage, or some sort of complication that the GM gets to name, hard move basically). He could also miss of course. In the 7-9 case there is definitely added fiction to be dealt with, although it might be fairly cut and dried.
Well I'm engaging in actions. They can be described in a way that will reveal my intention, and other underlying mental states; and also in ways that won't.
I just don't think we need this sort of apparatus from phil of action and phil of mind to talk about what Thor and Dro were doing!
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