D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[Lanefan]

Slowing advancement would 1) just kill casters way more easily, and 2) require using XP again.

I see no problem with either of these outcomes.

 

[JAMUMU]

For me, balance means "the game lurches from session to session with everyone wanting it to continue". I'm not a fan of overt mechanical balance, or perfectly-balanced character creation. IMHO, strict CR and encounter algebra quickly becomes code for "we can survive anything cos it's just a game tailored to our ongoing adventures lol".

I once had a player quit a game when his character got killeded dead by a giant snake.

"But...but... it should have gone down a round before me!"

"Mhm. But I rolled its HD and it had 9 more points than it says in El Monster Manuel."

"Your game sucks and you suck!"

"Goodbye, don't let the giant snake bite you on the way out."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Barely. You are no longer mundane in the same way someone who just got their Masters degree is no longer mundane. You're still an ordinary person who can go out for a beer with other ordinary people and fit in just fine; you've just picked up a few more skills along the way*.

no you are 'brearly normal' the way a speclist member of seal team 6 is 'no longer mundane'

I'd rather the real "you are no longer mundane" point not arrive until about 5th level (or even higher in a 1-20 system), in part because I greatly prefer situations where the characters are mortal, and vulnerable, and have to work around that in order to achieve their goals. Curb-stomping everything in their path most of the time is fine for higher levels.

I will only agre if ALL characters jump to no longer mundane around the same time, or at least close... but again, some people can teleport 30ft as a bonus action, shut down spells, and throw fire/lighting but others are just basic people...

* - I think this might be part of what makes Spiderman so popular, in that of the various supers/Avengers he spends by far the most time hanging out with ordinary people rather than other supers, and himself comes across as just an ordinary person with some abilities tacked on. He's relatable-to in ways many other supers are not.

I'm sorry but what in the late 70's early 80s his amazing friends are two mutants (ice man and firestar) and he is well into some huge % of adults knowing him... in the comics his first real friend is Johnny storm... he in more resent times has lived with the the avengers, Jessica Jones went to school with him...

 

[Lanefan]

I literally cannot imagine caring about a below 5% difference in odds. It is so insignificant that it is really not perceivable in play. And certainly a class feature should actually have a significant impact, so double proficiency or advantage would be warranted. And if it uses the same base system than everyone else, except just boosted, then we get around the issue of only one class being able to do this. Everyone can try it, this class just is a lot better at it.

You hit an example of a case where 5% odds are too high later in the same paragraph - well done!

To wit, the idea of everyone being able to try something at low-but-variable odds that a class can do much better as a class feature. Take bars-gates. 5% chance is far too high for most ordinary people other than those with particularly high Strength; 0% is too low (and also defeats the purpose), and 0.25%* is both too low in most cases and not variable enough in any case to account for the character's Strength. A simple low-is-good d%, where one's odds are a flat 1% per 3 points of Strength, is simple and works well enough for rock and roll.

* - I think this is the % odds of rolling two 1s on d20 with disadvantage, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

There's more to consider, though. The Fighter will have a fighting style, which may contribute to damage. The Champion will also be critting more often, which adds to damage. The Battle Master has superiority dice, which add damage plus effects. And so on. Also, even though the Fighter has more chances to miss due to more rolls, he is also hitting far, FAR more reliably every round due to more rolls. The Wizards gets a single all or nothing roll.

okay but all of that is most likely less helpfull then 2 5th level and 1 6th level spell... let alone 3 4th 4 3rd 4 2nd and 4 1st level ones... oh and that would then also count the wizard's subclass features... things like replacing d20 rolls with other rolls, animating the dead to fight for you ect...

 

[Lanefan]

no you are 'brearly normal' the way a speclist member of seal team 6 is 'no longer mundane'

At about 4th level, sure.

I will only agre if ALL characters jump to no longer mundane around the same time, or at least close... but again, some people can teleport 30ft as a bonus action, shut down spells, and throw fire/lighting but others are just basic people...

If one accepts there's spellcasters in the setting I think one also has to accept as a fact of life they'll be able to do things non-casters cannot, and that the only way to try to equalize that is to limit the number of spells casters can cast per x-amount of time and-or to make those spells harder to cast and-or to make some of those spells more dangerous to the caster.

Trying to equalize by jumping up the non-casters is IMO a fool's errand.

I'm sorry but what in the late 70's early 80s his amazing friends are two mutants (ice man and firestar) and he is well into some huge % of adults knowing him... in the comics his first real friend is Johnny storm... he in more resent times has lived with the the avengers, Jessica Jones went to school with him...

The second you start talking comics you lose me completely. I can only go by the movies.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The second you start talking comics you lose me completely. I can only go by the movies.

well I mean in the most resent movies he is with the avengers more then anything else... I mean really stark furry and strange have as much screen time if not more then aunt may... heck I think that Venom in 1 movie gets more screen time then uncle ben and harry osborn combined...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If one accepts there's spellcasters in the setting I think one also has to accept as a fact of life they'll be able to do things non-casters cannot, and that the only way to try to equalize that is to limit the number of spells casters can cast per x-amount of time and-or to make those spells harder to cast and-or to make some of those spells more dangerous to the caster.

I forgot to talk about D&D hold on...

4e managed to give fighters, rogues, and warlords all lists of things that were not magical but made them on par with the magical characters/

 

[Maxperson]

okay but all of that is most likely less helpfull then 2 5th level and 1 6th level spell... let alone 3 4th 4 3rd 4 2nd and 4 1st level ones... oh and that would then also count the wizard's subclass features... things like replacing d20 rolls with other rolls, animating the dead to fight for you ect...

It depends. One successful save and the 6th level spell can be useless. A completely wasted turn for the Wizard and when you get to 11th level, you start hitting legendary creatures that can auto save 3 times. The spell could be better, or it could be worse. You also find a lot of resistant or immune to specific elements creatures around that level, which can render those spells less than stellar. A Fighter with a magic weapon, even one that has no plus to hit, will rarely be in that boat. And those slots will often be used for utility outside of combat during the other pillars. The Wizard can't be a combat spell beast AND still do all the shenanigans.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It depends. One successful save and the 6th level spell can be useless. A completely wasted turn for the Wizard and when you get to 11th level, you start hitting legendary creatures that can auto save 3 times. The spell could be better, or it could be worse. You also find a lot of resistant or immune to specific elements creatures around that level, which can render those spells less than stellar. A Fighter with a magic weapon, even one that has no plus to hit, will rarely be in that boat. And those slots will often be used for utility outside of combat during the other pillars. The Wizard can't be a combat spell beast AND still do all the shenanigans.

I guess you could save for hold monster or disentagrate... but legend lore auto works so too does planar binding and teleport circle...

then again cone of cold and fireball each throw 8 dice of damage and the save is only for half...