D&D General Why TSR-era D&D Will Always Be D&D

[GMforPowergamers]

So no one else on this thread has ever been on a development of a new project?

I have... I would even say my experence in doing so is part of why I don't assume everything any company or rep for a company says 2 years before the roll out is 100% accurate.

Sometimes you have ideas, things you'd like to do, even think will be possible. Then you go through iterations of design and prototypes and you can't always deliver exactly what you thought you could. You realize that what you had in mind would lead to a worse product and not suit the actual needs of the users.

been there done that

The devs weren't misleading anyone on purpose.

I even accounted for that in my "they don't even have to be lying"

They may have been mistaken, they (particularly Mearls) probably could have phrased things more clearly.

or maybe (as I have said many times now) over the year or so things changed.

This is a pointless argument.

great ending to a post "I said my peace but this is pointless so no need to respond"

 

[Mannahnin]

isn't that a fallacy? someone says no x would ever y so the other comes back with an x doing y so then it's no true x...

used or missused I see it asserted to discount expertise.

That's what I'm telling you. Using it to disregard expertise is definitionally a misuse.

The entire meaning of the fallacy is that saying "X is an expert on Y, therefore what X says about Y is true" is not a valid argument. An expert can still make a false statement. And an idiot or liar can still say a true thing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Whether the designers were "lying," in the sense of intentionally saying things that were not true or which were intended to mislead, is somewhat irrelevant to me.

What is more relevant, to me, is that they presented a set of statements which (pretty clearly by intent) set up particular expectations. Instead of coming forward at any point and saying, "Hey guys. These were the things we intended. It doesn't seem like those things are going to happen now. Times change and projects evolve, and that always means the end result differs from the initial vision, sometimes by a lot. In our case, we see this as missing a few details while really nailing the overall picture, but for some, the devil will always be in the details. We hope that, if you choose to dive into 5e, you too can see that the hopes we had for it are largely fulfilled. The whole team is immensely proud of their work, and we can't wait to see what you do with the game we've made. We hit almost every single goal we wanted to, and the end result is fantastic. I hope you all enjoy your time, whatever games you choose to spend it on!"

This is, obviously, 99.9% corporate drivel by volume, platitudes and happy-speak with little real content. But it would have meant a lot to me for them to say, even through all the PR filters and such, "Yeah, some of that stuff we said we were going to do...we never actually did. Hope you still like the game we made."

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If you took everything the developers said they wanted/were trying to do as gospel (from the early stages of the game) you could leave very disappointed!

and yet when I say (2 years from new PHB) that I am unsure that what they said a year ago matters... I am getting grief.

 

[payn]

Whether the designers were "lying," in the sense of intentionally saying things that were not true or which were intended to mislead, is somewhat irrelevant to me.

What is more relevant, to me, is that they presented a set of statements which (pretty clearly by intent) set up particular expectations. Instead of coming forward at any point and saying, "Hey guys. These were the things we intended. It doesn't seem like those things are going to happen now. Times change and projects evolve, and that always means the end result differs from the initial vision, sometimes by a lot. In our case, we see this as missing a few details while really nailing the overall picture, but for some, the devil will always be in the details. We hope that, if you choose to dive into 5e, you too can see that the hopes we had for it are largely fulfilled. The whole team is immensely proud of their work, and we can't wait to see what you do with the game we've made. We hit almost every single goal we wanted to, and the end result is fantastic. I hope you all enjoy your time, whatever games you choose to spend it on!"

This is, obviously, 99.9% corporate drivel by volume, platitudes and happy-speak with little real content. But it would have meant a lot to me for them to say, even through all the PR filters and such, "Yeah, some of that stuff we said we were going to do...we never actually did. Hope you still like the game we made."

Yeah, im curious what the right amount of exposure is. I mean, D&D is a community game so I appreciate the dev blogs and stuff. Though, how much of it is the big picture and how much is just wagging the dog? What is the best approach to be clear and honest even if you leave some folks disappointed?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's what I'm telling you. Using it to disregard expertise is definitionally a misuse.

I have little use for what things are intended to do... If you build a gun that shoots nails so fast that it is meant to build homes faster, but people shoot other people with it... yes the INTENT was to build homes and yes the use was NOT inteded... but that is how they are used, and as such my experience is being shot at not having a house built...

The entire meaning of the fallacy is that saying "X is an expert on Y, therefore what X says about Y is true" is not a valid argument. An expert can still make a false statement. And an idiot or liar can still say a true thing.

yes, but overall I see the argument used to just shut down conversations... not to say "maybe we should look at this closer" but to say "That doesn't count so we can ignore it" and the same is true of all fallacies I see on the internet

 

[Lanefan]

So no one else on this thread has ever been on a development of a new project? Sometimes you have ideas, things you'd like to do, even think will be possible. Then you go through iterations of design and prototypes and you can't always deliver exactly what you thought you could. You realize that what you had in mind would lead to a worse product and not suit the actual needs of the users.

Which is fine, except IMO once you* release those ideas into the wild for public consumption you're in effect committing to seeing those ideas through to completion, for better or worse. By making that (IMO foolish) tweet, Mearls committed to putting martial healing in 5e; and though I personally think martial healing is a gawd-awful idea that should never have seen the light of day, that commitment IMO means it has to be there in the finished system. Same for the modularity of design, the earlier-edition compatibility, etc., etc.

Put another way: don't tell us your pie-in-the-sky goals until-unless you've achieved them; and NEVER promise anything you aren't 110% sure you can deliver - or better yet, have already delivered.

* - you-in-general, not you- @Oofta .

 

[overgeeked]

So now we’re at the stage in the arguing to argue argument where people say things like “the definition of words doesn’t matter because people can misuse them.”

Well, to that nonsense I can only say: quiche.

 

[Hex08]

yes, but overall I see the argument used to just shut down conversations... not to say "maybe we should look at this closer" but to say "That doesn't count so we can ignore it" and the same is true of all fallacies I see on the internet

This is why pointing out fallacies is bad argumentation. They are meant to help you to reason better, not to toss in peoples faces.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So now we’re at the stage in the arguing to argue argument where people say things like “the definition of words doesn’t matter because people can misuse them.”

Well, to that nonsense I can only say: quiche.

yeah, cause how people use something is more important than how the inventor invisoned it's use...

If I told someone I needed Viagra I don't think many would think it was for my heart... even if that is what it was meant for.