Why Jargon is Bad, and Some Modern Resources for RPG Theory

It's no coincidence that the play I stumbled into in the second half of the 80s (as per my self-quote just upthread) involved OA and then an all-thieves game. PCs in OA have instigations (families, martial arts masters, etc) built into them; and so do AD&D thieves (ie they want to thieve things!). If PCs don't bring any trajectory with them (and by default, AD&D PCs don't, Traveller PCs don't, RM PCs don't, CoC PCs don't, even Pendragon PCs don't) then getting non-GM-driven play moving will be hard!
GURPS and HERO actually do have that in spite of being really early offering saw them in early 80s. Where players may define their own mentors / contacts / adversaries / enemies and rivals and so on.... or other events and expect them to enter play or even control how often.
 
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Open world vs closed world.

Open world lets you go to any hex.

Closed world means your choices are spam or spam.

That's how they're used in video games at least.

Closed World?

Spam or spam?

That is some jargon I’m not acquainted with. I mean I know what “spam” means generally (“to do something over and over”) but I don’t know what it means in this case (possibly because I don’t know the jargon “Closed World”)?
 


I've got no particular view on Torner's work, which I haven't read. But I agree with your basic point.

I think that the sociology of gameplay isn't necessarily relevant to technical questions of game design: ....

The definition of chutzpah has been defined as the quality of a person who kills their parents, and demands mercy from the court because they are an orphan.

Given that the genesis of this thread regarding jargon that provided numerous sources and links for modern TTRPG theory, and that this was done partly because some people repeatedly demand that others read and utilize their preferred jargon, it is ... disheartening that people will dismiss things while blithely acknowledging that they haven't read it.

Of course, the cited section isn't sociology, it's RPG Theorizing by Designers. Which makes sense, because (among other things) the guy does a lot of work with designers.

I wish I had the certainty to both characterize and dismiss the things I have never read, by people I was unfamiliar with.
 
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it is ... disheartening that people rush in to dismiss things while blithely acknowledging that they haven't read it.

I wish I had the certainty to both characterize and dismiss the things I have never read, by people I was unfamiliar with.
Intellectual curiosity is not a universal trait. Unfortunately.
 

Exactly, but there seems to be a lack of understanding as to exactly HOW DIFFERENT the state of thought on RPGs is today than it was in 1974 (or '84, '94, etc.). I don't make a claim about my experience to be some sort of jerk who claims to know more than all the other nerds. What I'm saying is, having been there in 1974 and all those years in between, and ACTUALLY PARTICIPATED in those discussions, and actively played many of the games involved and tinkered with them, and seen what we ACTUALLY DID LEARN from them, the notion that we're just repeating ourselves endlessly is patently absurd.

You don't seem to understand the difference between Torner and Peterson. Peterson did the history (several times, but most recently and interestingly in The Elusive Shift). Torner was discussing the general idea of how RPG theorizing in amateur communities has worked. Different things.

I would recommend ... reading them. Or at least reading about them, and perhaps this might be more clear to you. With or without ALL-CAPS.

While people have personal experiences that we can honor, the entire point of doing things in a systematic fashion is so that you can make generalized observations- not simply have one person say, "This is what I saw, okay?" This is especially true when dealing with history- no matter how connected you were (and you don't indicate it), I somehow doubt your experience in the 70s covers the breadth of history covered in the recent books, which touched on numerous subcultures and referenced primary sources.

But how about this- you can read the very well-sourced books that have come out and tell us where they are wrong? Be specific- as in, "This person discussed X in A&E #Y, and I was actually playing in the MIT mega dungeon, and ..."

Good?

I'm sure Torner et al. THINK they have discovered some great truth there, but personally I think they have cherry-picked, interpreted things in a way that serves their purpose, etc.

Okay! So, since you haven't read any of these books, it's pretty simple to disagree. Again, it's pretty impressive to say that someone (with published and verifiable work) did something wrong when you haven't read it.

Moreover you're confusing two different concepts from two different authors.

This is a problem with all research of this kind in the 'social sciences' or general academia, there's really no way to do what is now common in hard science, where BEFORE YOU COLLECT DATA you form a hypothesis and you state exactly how you will interpret the data and which outcomes will produce which conclusions. Time and time again experience has proven that all other approaches are essentially just testing biases.

On the one hand, you are rubbishing the soft sciences and general academia, and on the other hand, you are insisting that we trust only you and your word and not ... publication with sourced documents that are avaailable to all.

I would also add that it continues to be odd to me that the same people who insist on jargon seem intent on rubbishing “academia.”

So, I would not dismiss Evan Torner entirely out of hand. I would just say that it doesn't seem to be part of his agenda ....

It's interesting that you wrote this, given that you didn't bother learning who he is. I am quite sure that his "agenda" isn't what you think.

Perhaps you would read the book by William J. White on the Forge, including his dialogue that includes, inter alia, Evan Torner, and get back to me? Because (all together now) I AM NOT DOING THAT REVIEW.

And, apparently, book reading is anathema to some, I guess?
 
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GURPS and HERO actually do have that in spite of being really early offering saw them in early 80s. Where players may define their own mentors / contacts / adversaries / enemies and rivals and so on.... or other events and expect them to enter play or even control how often.
Good point. Superheroes, in particular, are interesting in this respect.
 

I wish I had the certainty to both characterize and dismiss the things I have never read, by people I was unfamiliar with.
I didn't dismiss it. I expressed a view about the relationship between sociology of gaming, and game design. I teach theoretical sociology, and read work in social philosophy and sociology, which informs my view about whether and how sociology of RPGing bears upon the sort of technical design @AbdulAlhazred was talking about.

The last time I read one of the academic articles you linked to I found it pretty uninspiring (it was ch 4 of the Roleplaying Studies collection published by Routledge). I didn't think its analysis of the relationship between participants, fiction and external materials (dice, etc) was very powerful. (Vincent Baker's is better, in my view.) And going back to it now, I see that Torner is one of the authors!

For instance, consider this from pp 65 and 66 of that chapter:

Any given game is more or less completely described qua game by its setting and system.​

Setting is defined as "The fictional background against which the adventures of the PCs are set or the world in which the game takes place." Adventure is defined as

A play scenario enacted as a sequence of in-game events in a TRPG that, in retrospect, can be said to comprise a narrative arc or plot trajectory, with a beginning, middle, and end.In its simplest form, this consists of a hook (a reason for the PCs to get involved or take action, such as finding a treasure map or being hired by a patron), in-play development (eg the exploration of a dungeon and identification of its important features, puzzle, or dangers or interaction with key non-player characters (NPCs) to gather information and extern influence), climax (eg a showdown fight with a major villain or the solution of a central mystery or problem), and aftermath (eg gathering treasure and returning to town or being rewarded or betrayed by a patron).​

And system is defined as

The procedures by which elements in the fiction are introduced, modified, changed or removed. These include strictly game-mechanical procedures, such as combat rules and character generation processes, as well as implicit procedures for scenario or adventure design and worldbuilding. More broadly, it can be taken to mean the broader set of behavioural norms and performative conventions that guide participation in the game, which will vary by play group.​

There's nothing true here that wasn't already said by Vincent Baker, who is not cited in this chapter (Baker is cited in some later chapters -chh 10 and 11 - including by Torner: his work is described as "para-academic"). But it is not as good as what Baker says. The notion of system doesn't seem to be extended to consequences, and doesn't explore the relationship between mechanics and principles; the notions of setting and adventure are very narrow and don't seem to cover some phenomena which would count as RPGs.

Here is the reference to Baker in ch 11:

indie TRPGs and larps have begun experimenting with using RPGs as events that re-present - reflect and critique society - and events that model - through stoking morally transformative experiences but also directly, eg by raising moral questions for players, as in the TRPG Dogs in the Vineyard (Baker 2004) or LARP collection #Feminism Nano-Games (Bushyager, Stark, and Westerling 2106) or by situtaing larps in public space as a form of protest, such as Amerika, a Weltschmerz Network larp (2000).[/i]​


People who are familiar with Edwards work, and DitV, already knew this was happening!
 

GURPS and HERO actually do have that in spite of being really early offering saw them in early 80s. Where players may define their own mentors / contacts / adversaries / enemies and rivals and so on.... or other events and expect them to enter play or even control how often.

Its a virtual necessity to be able to put together traditional superhero characters.
 

This is from Torner's chapter, p 198:

The Big Model provides an example for theory as a team effort. The Forge participants formed a model that unified and connected different threads. Its components are hardly unique . . . But the Big Model arguably integrated the function components of an RPG . . . It was a first major synthesis that enabled key future work . . .​

Good thing we've all agreed The Forge is terrible!

The same chapter, p 205, says

A core process of RPG play is task resolution: determining whether a player character succeeds at a task in the game world.​

This is obviously contentious. And what immediately follows it is wrong: it discusses fictional positioning, with reference to Baker's blog, but then goes on to say "Another model is DFK, devised by Tweet" but that is not another model: what has been described in the immediately preceding paragraph is an example of drama resolution. I think Ron Edwards has much more interesting things to say about DFK than Torner does.

Maybe this isn't Torner's best work - I wouldn't know. But I didn't find it terribly profound.
 

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