A critique and review of the Fighter class

[SteveC]

Other than rogues and bards, no other class gets a particular benefit for OOC activities outside of limited resources.

I think that's the point: other classes have spells that are limited resources period, whether that is short or long rest related. Some of them affect social or exploration encounters. Fighters don't have those things outside of taking feats.
Is that an issue? Not to everyone, that's for sure. To me, it sure is, and I'm actively in favor of giving each class something mechanical to do in each of the game's pillars. And again, that is nowhere near a universal consensus.
What I've seen in my groups is that no one ends up playing a fighter, and again that is definitely not the case globally, as Wizard's surveys say it's a popular class. The best answer I can give for that is that it's a great starter class when you're new to the game... and there are a lot of new people just starting play.

 

[bedir than]

It's good that any class can become effective at the social skills. Players choice between trade offs and such.

This ignores that every other class in Tier 1 has social and/or exploration abilities

 

[Shadowedeyes]

To be fair, the Barbarian pre Tashas had nothing either, and even now is only marginally better, getting a whole extra skill proficiency.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Other classes get fewer attacks to multiply bonuses across, fewer bonuses adding to each attack and/or both of those things. It's a disparity that grows into fighters very much being "that" much better in combat at level 11+

They get one extra attack at level 11, and can have some more bonuses depending on the subclass. It's good, but not everything in combat.

But that wasn't my point anyway, I meant it in an in-universe view, where NPCs can react to your fighting exploits and you can get better socially as a result. They aren't so great that they'll be much noticeably superior than, say, a Paladin or Ranger, and full casters will always be useful while having flashy abilites more likely to impress ("That tree hugging wizard turned a Hill Giant into a worm right in front of me!").

And they'll of course have troubles keeping up socially out of combat when so many classes can pull off miracles every single day without fail.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Fighter needs to dominate the Social pillar. If it did, the complaining would come from other classes. And you can't make everything dominate the Social Pillar.

I don't think the fighter needs to dominate the social pillar. I was responding to a claim that the build I was critiquing did. pre-L11 Battlemasters can (since Tasha's) play there as effectively as rogues as a battlemaster superiority dice is normally worth more than expertise although is limited use; Commanding Presence allows Performance and Persuasion, and Tactical Assessment allows Investigation, History, or Insight.

And yes the barbarian is as much a problem case as the fighter (although doesn't have heavy armour to deal with for stealth).

 

[Vaalingrade]

To be fair, the Barbarian pre Tashas had nothing either, and even now is only marginally better, getting a whole extra skill proficiency.

I think the barbarian typically gets a pass is because the issue isn't really about the pillars. The pillars are just a bundle of easy-to-apply buzzwords that happen to coincide with the fighter problem. The real issue is a lack of interesting things to do. The Non-Battlemaster can't do much besides hit things while the Barbar--despite not having much in the way of other pillar interaction--still gets interesting things to do even if they're all in combat.

You can still RP in combat after all, but there's sonly so much you can do with 'I insert the pointy stick into the bad thing'.

 

[tetrasodium]

They get one extra attack at level 11, and can have some more bonuses depending on the subclass. It's good, but not everything in combat.

But that wasn't my point anyway, I meant it in an in-universe view, where NPCs can react to your fighting exploits and you can get better socially as a result. They aren't so great that they'll be much noticeably superior than, say, a Paladin or Ranger, and full casters will always be useful while having flashy abilites more likely to impress ("That tree hugging wizard turned a Hill Giant into a worm right in front of me!").

And they'll of course have troubles keeping up socially out of combat when so many classes can pull off miracles every single day without fail.

It's ot just one extra attack because that attack adds weapon feat fighting style & ability score mods just like the others. Also action surge recovers on every short rest unlike limited Hugh level spell slots.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I know, but it doesn't really change the point.

 

[James Gasik]

Why does it take til level 11 for the Fighter to become better in combat than other classes anyways?

I don't tend to look at the "back 10" levels when making judgment calls about the game, since most of the play I see doesn't get to that point. I would think if Fighters were really meant to be the premier combat class, they'd get that extra attack sooner to really make them stand out.

It's certainly nice that Fighters have short rest resources, so if they get enough rests per diem, they can pull ahead of, say, Paladins, but with their host of powerful defensive abilities and the versatility of spells vs. smite (and better spellcasting than the Eldritch Knight), in all of the games I've seen, pre-10th level Paladins > pre-10th level Fighters.

But I played mostly Adventurer's League and home games where the DM used beefier but fewer encounters, so I know that colors my perceptions of how the classes function.

 

[Flamestrike]

Mod note:
But insulting people is a problem to everyone.

I'm going to have to ask you to make your points without degrading or demeaning people. If you can't do that, you are probably better off finding a different discussion, before this one incites you to say something that gets you in more significant trouble than a bit of red text.

OK fine.

But otherwise my point stands re this thread, and I've raised this topic with you personally via PM (and never got a response).

This exact thread (or copies of it, in various forms) about 'Martials suck and Casters rock' seems to crop up on a weekly basis (the thread I PMd you about existed on three separate variants on the main board that day) with the same small group of people, complaining about the same thing, they've been complaining about, for 7 years now.

I could find you hundreds of versions of this exact same thread on this forum, largely dominated by the same negative voices.

It's tiring, and it makes a forum designed to encourage discussion, do the exact opposite.

Like; I dont go on the Ultralight Hiking forum of Reddit to see some dude post a new thread every other day, bagging out the same aspects of UL hiking, with the same dudes repeating the same stuff in that thread over and over and over again, and refusing to even look at different POVs.

Can you please, create a stickied thread or something of that note, or moderate this topic in some manner (other than going after the guys getting frustrated by the same thread over and over and over again) to stop the same repeated discussion, bagging out the game we all come to this site and this forum to discuss?

Im not being critical of you here, just expressing frustration with the above phenomena, and nothing ever seeming to get done about it. It's nearly as bad as the 'Sorcerer King' spamming from a while back.

Thanks.