D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Mort]

Which doesn't say anything about having a supernatural ability to perceive that they're being cast - only that, when he does see them, he knows exactly what they are.

But wouldn't that include knowing that subtle spell is being cast? Easily justified from there.

 

[MarkB]

But wouldn't that include knowing that subtle spell is being cast?

Subtle spell isn't a spell, it's a metamagic effect. Vecna's ability would allow him to instantaneously know that the caster is capable of using metamagic including subtle spell, but it doesn't say anything about knowing when the caster is using it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Which doesn't say anything about having a supernatural ability to perceive that they're being cast - only that, when he does see them, he knows exactly what they are.

I agree with you that it doesn’t say that, and in a vacuum I would definitely not think this indicated that he could tell when a subtke spell was being cast without components. Likewise, in a vacuum I wouldn’t think that the different wording of Dread Counterspell would mean that. But in conjunction they’re enough to put me on the fence.

 

[Maxperson]

What's the difference? Vecna must utter the word, "Vec-NAH!" in order to counter your spell.

 

[bedir than]

That analogy doesn’t track. I’m not asking if Vecna knows the mechanics, I’m asking if he’s aware that a spell is being cast, and if he’s not, how does he know to utter the dread word that will negate it?

How does Paul the Fighter 2 know they need to Action Surge?

 

[Parmandur]

Because it makes me question the motivations of the people making it. I don’t care what would make him stronger, I care what the rules say. If I want to make him stronger I can do that myself, but I want to understand how he was intended to play before I go making changes to it.

For me, it simply the English grammar if Dead Counterspell: it clearly states that the only two conditions are Vecna seeing the creature, and the creature casting a Spell. This is very specifically notvworded like normal Counterspell, which is designed to allow stuff like Subtle Spell to interfere.

 

[Stalker0]

Here is another example:

If you have a creature that is immune to non-magical weapons, they are in the dark and cannot see, and they are hit by a non-magical sword (which they do not know is non-magic at the time)....do they cast shield?

The weapon would do no damage (so no "pain"). The creature was in the dark and couldn't see the attack being made. So could the creature really know that its been "hit by a weapon?" Yet the wording of the spell suggests that yes, the shield spell is still possible. And even if you rule that the weight of the weapon gave them enough of a clue when they get struck....that means the shield spell activates literally after the sword cuts into the person...and somehow alters time and retcons the actual physical contact in the first place.

The point of this example is that reactions can play pretty loose with the concept of "perceiving" that things are happening and the timing of when they can occur. Why does the perception of the spellcasting have to happen at the moment casting begins? Why can't it be after a magical effect starts to form? Why can't it be right as the magic is hurled towards its target, and is countered just nanoseconds before it strikes?

 

[Maxperson]

For me, it simply the English grammar if Dead Counterspell: it clearly states that the only two conditions are Vecna seeing the creature, and the creature casting a Spell. This is very specifically notvworded like normal Counterspell, which is designed to allow stuff like Subtle Spell to interfere.

That's how it's written, but there have been way too many vaguely worded and poorly phrased sentences in this edition for me to be confident that's what they actually meant.

I'm not sure how I would personally rule this ability. On one hand, it definitely strengthens Counterspell if you don't even need to see the spell casting. On the other hand, it's Vecna and magic, so sensing it would A) make sense, and B) make it feel like Vecna is super powerful which is what he's supposed to be. Okay. Just writing that out helped me make the decision.

 

[Flamestrike]

"Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell."

Yeah but Vecna doesnt know the creature is casting a spell (if it's cast Subtly).

Take a look at Mage Slayer reaction. You just need a creature within 5' casting a spell (you dont even need to be able to see them).

Are you saying that you would allow a Fighter with MS a MS reaction attack against a Subtle spell being cast within 5' of that Fighter, that the Fighter has no idea is being cast?

If so, JC ruled the exact opposite (Subtle works against Mage Slayer, and denies the attack).

It's literally worded the same as Dread Counterspell, and doesnt ever require sight.

 

[Flamestrike]

Here is another example:

If you have a creature that is immune to non-magical weapons, they are in the dark and cannot see, and they are hit by a non-magical sword (which they do not know is non-magic at the time)....do they cast shield?

The weapon would do no damage (so no "pain"). The creature was in the dark and couldn't see the attack being made. So could the creature really know that its been "hit by a weapon?" Yet the wording of the spell suggests that yes, the shield spell is still possible. And even if you rule that the weight of the weapon gave them enough of a clue when they get struck....that means the shield spell activates literally after the sword cuts into the person...and somehow alters time and retcons the actual physical contact in the first place.

The point of this example is that reactions can play pretty loose with the concept of "perceiving" that things are happening and the timing of when they can occur. Why does the perception of the spellcasting have to happen at the moment casting begins? Why can't it be after a magical effect starts to form? Why can't it be right as the magic is hurled towards its target, and is countered just nanoseconds before it strikes?

Pain is not the trigger, knowing you're hit is the trigger.