D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Charlaquin]

He does have the Detect Magic spell, but I don't think that was being accounted for to begin with.

That’s a good point.

 

[MarkB]

But if it's a reaction and he is scrying on the party when they aren't in initiative order then how would he do it?

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah, it's a bit circular: He has to know to do it, and it says he can do it, so it implies that he knows.

That is literally circular though, and therefore fallacious reasoning.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, it's a bit circular: He has to know to do it, and it says he can do it, so it implies that he knows.

Yes, I think the mechanic is clear, but the narrative of "how he knows" needs some fleshing out...as it were.

 

[Parmandur]

I want to first understand how it’s supposed to work and then come up with a narrative explanation of how it works that way, not to use a narrative explanation to justify how I think it should work.

I disagree that it’s clear from either. I could reasonably see that being the intent, but there is too much ambiguity for me to be confident that it is.

The power as written is clear enough: if Vecna sees a creature and the creature is casting, he can react whether he can see the casting or not. The only question then is how does that work, for which several solutions suggest themselves.

 

[dave2008]

I agree that by the rules as written, Vecna doesn’t need to see the target casting to use Dread Counterspell. My contention is that he still needs to be aware that a spell is being cast in some way.

My point is that is not RAW. It says he needs to see the person, period. Him being aware a spell is being cast is a reasonable assumption, but it is not required by RAW.

 

[Parmandur]

That is literally circular though, and therefore fallacious reasoning.

the ability doesn't say that he has to know anything, he can just do it. That he knows is entirely inferred narratively post facto, and I think reasonably so. But he is Vecna...he knows. But you could flavor it as pure instinct without knowledge being needed, either, knowledge doesn't enter into RAW.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yes, I think the mechanic is clear, but the narrative of "how he knows" needs some fleshing out...as it were.

It isn’t clear at all. Let me put it this way. Can he use it if he doesn’t know the creature he sees is casting a spell? Yes, in that he is capable of doing so. Would he do so? I can’t imagine how he would even think to do it unless he knew, which the text does not indicate he does.

 

[Parmandur]

It isn’t clear at all. Let me put it this way. Can he use it if he doesn’t know the creature he sees is casting a spell? Yes, in that he is capable of doing so. Would he do so? I can’t imagine how he would even think to do it unless he knew, which the text does not indicate he does.

Hence the it logically follows that he probably knows...but the stat block doesn't give a why, just a what. It would be better if they spelled it out more clearly, but it is clear as written that he does it, how aside.

 

[Charlaquin]

The power as written is clear enough: if Vecna sees a creature and the creature is casting, he can react whether he can see the casting or not. The only question then is how does that work, for which several solutions suggest themselves.

No, there’s also the question of if he would, and if he doesn’t know it’s being cast, the only reasonable answer is no, he would not, because he wouldn’t know he has need to.