D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Mort]

It isn’t just a passive ability though, he has to utter a dread word!

Maybe he has Dread Counterspell tourette's - you don't know!

 

[Parmandur]

He can’t just react. The conditions for using the ability are met, sure, but he has to choose to use the ability - it requires him to speak, after all - and he can’t make a choice about something he isn’t consciously aware of.

I say things as an unconscious reaction all the time, particularly whenI stubborn my toe. His may be better trained and more effective. It doesn't matter to the RAW, there is no requirement suggesting anything other than he has a free Reaction and can see a creature that is casting. No other limiters, other than DM supplied roleplaying. And I can think of a number of adequate explanations for the RAW in game, all of them suitably Lichy.

 

[Parmandur]

He SPEAKS A FRIGGIN WORD! That’s a conscious act of will.

Saying "naughty word" in front of my toddler when I walk into a table is neither conscious nor an act of will.

 

[Guest 7034872]

He can’t just react. The conditions for using the ability are met, sure, but he has to choose to use the ability - it requires him to speak, after all - and he can’t make a choice about something he isn’t consciously aware of.

I've done it. There've been times when some word or sentence came out of my mouth and I could not believe that I'd just said it. And I don't just mean I accidentally verbalized a private thought--I mean the words themselves and their content were a shock to me. Haven't you ever done that?

 

[dave2008]

It isn’t just a passive ability though, he has to utter a dread word!

He could do that passively as well. However, it could just be the sensual trigger that is passive and he has to actively speak the word if that is more comfortable to you. In game, the DM has to chose to use the ability after all, even though I (DM) know a spell is being cast. So it could be he simply knows spells are being cast, but has to choose to cast dread spell. That fits the RAW perfectly fine. The point is the narrative fluff should be fashioned to fit RAW, not the other way around (unless the dev say the RAI is something else and errata should be issued).

 

[Charlaquin]

Why not?

Because he doesn’t know anything is happening to which he can react.

Do you have to be conscious to to speak? I mean people speak when they are sleeping, which is just about the definition of unconscious.

He’s obviously not sleeping in combat.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

That is literally circular though, and therefore fallacious reasoning.

Well, in "normal" discussions, yes, but in D&D rulings? No. There are a LOT of abilities that work because the rules say they do, and coming up with story-reasons WHY is part of the game. A very fun part, IMO.

In this case, all the lore that has ever been about Vecna (including the current adventure featuring him) suggests that an ability to tell that a spell is being cast just by looking at a caster (yes, even a caster who is just thinking about casting) is perfectly within his wheelhouse. To me, that is enough to believe that it's possible that the contentious "that" is intended and therefore RAI.

But I would square that circle even if we weren't talking about Vecna. Because the rule says he can do it, so he can. I can think of many many reasons why anyone could do it, if the RAW says they can. And I'm not a D&D player who particularly cares about RAW. To me, close enough is close enough, as long as everyone is having a good time.

 

[Parmandur]

Because he doesn’t know anything is happening to which he can react.

He’s obviously not sleeping in combat.

I mean, in all seriousness he probably.knows...but how or why isn't specified, just the mechanical facts of what happens when Vecna sees a creature who is casting.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It isn’t just a passive ability though, he has to utter a dread word!

I suspect he's muttering dread words all the time. They only stop spellcasters he can see, though!

 

[MarkB]

By RAW it doesn't matter if he "knows." It just works. He could know, or it could be instinctual, or it could be a passive ability. By RAW, that doesn't matter. It similar to 4e monster powers which just told you what happened, not the narrative of why/how it happens.

So, if it just happens, regardless of whether he knows or not, if it's totally instinctive and beyond his conscious control, does he react this way every time someone he can see casts a spell, whether he wants to or not?